- Series
- Behavioral science research
- Air Date
- 1961-07-20
- Duration
- 00:29:11
- Episode Description
- This program focuses on research into human performance and stress. Guests are: Louis Jolyon West, M.D., University of Oklahoma; and Robert H. Felix, M.D.
- Series Description
- A documentary series on behavioral science and its role in understanding human health.
- Subject(s)
- Creator(s)
- University of Michigan (Producer)Phillips, Glen (Host)
- Contributors
- West, Louis Jolyon, 1924- (Interviewee)Felix, Robert H. (Robert Hanna), 1904- (Interviewee)
- Genre(s)
- Geographic Region(s)
- regions
- Time Period
- 1961-1970
[00:05 - 00:09]
The following program is produced by the University of Michigan broadcasting service under a grant he
[00:09 - 00:14]
made from the National Educational Television and Radio Center in cooperation with the
[00:14 - 00:19]
National Association of educational broadcasters performance and
[00:19 - 00:24]
stress program from the series human behavior social and
[00:24 - 00:28]
medical research produced by the University of Michigan broadcasting service
[00:28 - 00:35]
with special assistance from the Mental Health Research Institute of the University of Michigan.
[00:35 - 00:39]
These programs have been developed from interviews with men and women who have the too
[00:39 - 00:44]
often on glamorous job of basic research. Research in medicine the
[00:44 - 00:50]
physical sciences social sciences and the behavioral sciences.
[00:50 - 00:55]
Occasionally you will hear what may seem like strange or unfamiliar silence. These are
[00:55 - 01:00]
the sounds of the participants office laboratory or clinic where the interviews were
[01:00 - 01:05]
first recorded. The people you will hear today are Dr. Louis Jay
[01:05 - 01:09]
Wess head of the department of psychiatry neurology and behavioral
[01:09 - 01:14]
sciences at the University of Oklahoma in Oklahoma City Oklahoma.
[01:14 - 01:19]
And Dr. Robert H Felix director of the National Institute of Mental Health in
[01:19 - 01:22]
Bethesda Maryland. And my name is Glenn Phillips.
[01:22 - 01:29]
Humans have been studied under normal conditions of stress rather extensively. But
[01:29 - 01:34]
little is known about their capabilities or limitations. When more extreme
[01:34 - 01:39]
conditions are presented the very nature of an expanding understanding of the
[01:39 - 01:44]
universe will exert more and more strain and stress to daily living will
[01:44 - 01:49]
manage us aside from daily routine. Some more dramatic
[01:49 - 01:53]
conditions confronting him will be long stretches in relative confinement in a submarine for
[01:53 - 01:58]
example a feat already accomplished confinement in space vehicle
[01:58 - 02:05]
a step just around the corner. Pressures and responsibility of government office.
[02:05 - 02:09]
Also such other stress as has been vividly demonstrated by enemy induced insult to
[02:09 - 02:14]
mind and body. Not only is a better understanding needed of stress
[02:14 - 02:19]
situation but we need to know techniques that may be used to improve
[02:19 - 02:23]
performance. What are some of the facts known by scientists.
[02:23 - 02:27]
Dr. Robert Felix made this statement.
[02:27 - 02:31]
We know for instance that. Various kinds of stresses and
[02:31 - 02:35]
strains under which a person lives can cause.
[02:35 - 02:41]
Disorders in the way the cream glands function
[02:41 - 02:47]
the types of hormones which are elaborated work of such great
[02:47 - 02:51]
scientists as Dr Hans Saturday and Canada doctor
[02:51 - 02:56]
doctors Pincus and Hoagland in Massachusetts and a number of others
[02:56 - 03:02]
have pointed out the various ways in which individuals respond
[03:02 - 03:07]
to stress in sickness and in health. Well it may well be then that
[03:07 - 03:11]
a healthy environment throws sufficient stress on an individual that he
[03:11 - 03:16]
is eventually compensates
[03:16 - 03:21]
physically. By this I mean that no longer can he adapt to this stress
[03:21 - 03:26]
as a normal person does and as a result various
[03:26 - 03:30]
of his bodily functions do not perform in
[03:30 - 03:35]
a completely normal manner and he produces substances
[03:35 - 03:40]
biochemical substances which in effect are what we call
[03:40 - 03:45]
psycho memetic. That is they. They produce or
[03:45 - 03:50]
mimic a psychotic state see motion only disturb
[03:50 - 03:50]
States.
[03:50 - 03:54]
Now.
[03:54 - 03:58]
As one tries to adapt to this unhealthy social
[03:58 - 04:03]
situation he adopts certain psychological mechanisms to make this
[04:03 - 04:07]
possible. It may be that these can become so disordered
[04:07 - 04:13]
as a result of continued failure to adapt socially
[04:13 - 04:17]
that they contribute to the stress which
[04:17 - 04:24]
in the end causes the breakdown of the adaptive mechanism.
[04:24 - 04:28]
Dr Louis J West and his associates at the University of Oklahoma medical school
[04:28 - 04:34]
have spent a great amount of time and energy studying man under stress condition.
[04:34 - 04:39]
Dr. West also has studied military personnel over many years as they have confronted
[04:39 - 04:41]
stressful situations.
[04:41 - 04:46]
He discussed his general feelings and his interest in this area and a great many
[04:46 - 04:52]
interesting and valuable observations have
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come from the most terrible of human activities. It's almost as though
[04:57 - 05:01]
nature feels that we ought to be rewarded for what we've gone through.
[05:01 - 05:09]
For example the atomic research
[05:09 - 05:14]
which was essentially geared to destructive purposes
[05:14 - 05:20]
has led us through the use of radioactive tracer materials to
[05:20 - 05:25]
methods whereby we can understand how human beings work
[05:25 - 05:30]
better than we ever were able to do before.
[05:30 - 05:35]
Similarly in a sphere of psychological stress and
[05:35 - 05:39]
suffering that people have had to undergo in war time.
[05:39 - 05:44]
We have obtained some leads that now seem to hold promise
[05:44 - 05:50]
in behavioral science today.
[05:50 - 05:56]
To me one of the most interesting aspects of all this comes out of one of the most
[05:56 - 06:00]
horrible. Of our recent wartime experiences.
[06:00 - 06:08]
As you know they communists in order to obtain false confessions
[06:08 - 06:12]
for political purposes have long resorted to
[06:12 - 06:17]
rather elaborate and terrifying system of
[06:17 - 06:23]
organized pressure upon individuals. The
[06:23 - 06:27]
nature of this stress sometimes erroneously called brainwashing is
[06:27 - 06:32]
one in which the individual is isolated
[06:32 - 06:37]
subjected to endless interrogations and
[06:37 - 06:42]
at the complete mercy of his captors is eventually brought to
[06:42 - 06:49]
confess to things that he never did and in some
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instances apparently with a certain measure of change in his
[06:53 - 06:57]
ability to determine himself whether or not he's innocent or guilty.
[06:57 - 07:05]
My own study days that began with such cases
[07:05 - 07:10]
and with a military requirements for understanding them.
[07:10 - 07:15]
Has now led to completely a different area of study
[07:15 - 07:20]
which I think holds promise in just the opposite direction.
[07:20 - 07:25]
And other words forced interrogations for political
[07:25 - 07:31]
purposes might be considered exercises in breaking people down.
[07:31 - 07:37]
We hope that eventually we will be able to develop information that will enable us
[07:37 - 07:41]
to put people back together again who have broken down under the stress and strain
[07:41 - 07:47]
of everyday life people who now occupy more than half of all
[07:47 - 07:50]
the hospital beds in this country.
[07:50 - 07:55]
To illustrate some of the points he has just made I asked Dr. West if it were
[07:55 - 08:00]
possible to know or distinguish the difference stresses that might be produced under
[08:00 - 08:01]
different situations.
[08:01 - 08:06]
Well that's a very good question and it's one that has bedeviled investigators for a long
[08:06 - 08:11]
time. And it appeared that there was no such thing as a
[08:11 - 08:16]
universal Strasse on man's strength this might be another man's phone
[08:16 - 08:21]
and vice versa. And approaching the problem
[08:21 - 08:26]
of. The Air Force prisoners who gave false confessions
[08:26 - 08:31]
under stress similar to the famous case of carnal men
[08:31 - 08:35]
Zandi and other political prisoners. We endeavored to
[08:35 - 08:40]
single out the aspects of this situation that
[08:40 - 08:46]
produced a affects breaking down a man's will
[08:46 - 08:51]
or his capacity to cope with the situation
[08:51 - 08:56]
enough to get him to admit to having done something he didn't
[08:56 - 09:01]
do. Contrary to his training and his background and
[09:01 - 09:05]
his beliefs we considered many things
[09:05 - 09:10]
drugs hypnosis Pavlovian conditioning
[09:10 - 09:15]
or just plain torture in the sense of
[09:15 - 09:20]
bringing a person to the point of doing anything to get relief from pain
[09:20 - 09:26]
and in no instance were we able to satisfy
[09:26 - 09:31]
ourselves. That any of
[09:31 - 09:35]
these things or even a combination of them could account for the remarkably good
[09:35 - 09:39]
results that the Communists were obtaining in getting
[09:39 - 09:45]
confessions of germ warfare from our fliers who had indeed not been
[09:45 - 09:50]
engaging in germ warfare. In fact it was in the search
[09:50 - 09:54]
for our secret is that the lead
[09:54 - 09:59]
presented itself to us that finally enabled us to see what was really under our
[09:59 - 10:04]
noses all the time. Some of these prisoners were given
[10:04 - 10:09]
drugs white powder in the food or some such thing. But this was
[10:09 - 10:14]
not a sedative or a drug which cause mental
[10:14 - 10:19]
disorganization like LSD. As far as we could determine it was a
[10:19 - 10:23]
simple stimulant or something like men's. And we couldn't
[10:23 - 10:28]
understand why they were trying to keep people awake.
[10:28 - 10:35]
And then we recalled that there had been some work during World War Two.
[10:35 - 10:41]
Prolonged sleep deprivation in Maine which indicated that if people were kept awake
[10:41 - 10:46]
long enough they might develop a mental illness and perhaps if they
[10:46 - 10:51]
became disorganized in their personalities it would be possible to get them
[10:51 - 10:56]
to do things they wouldn't otherwise do. With this in mind we
[10:56 - 11:00]
began to turn our attention to the whole issue of the
[11:00 - 11:05]
requirement that is universal for sleep
[11:05 - 11:10]
and the degree to which deprivation of sleep would lead
[11:10 - 11:16]
inevitably disastrous consequences.
[11:16 - 11:20]
From the point of view of mental function it's like deprivation of water will lead to
[11:20 - 11:26]
an evitable disastrous consequences in the total biology of a man.
[11:26 - 11:31]
We know that animals can be killed by keeping them awake long enough but we don't know why
[11:31 - 11:35]
they die. At the time that we begin to
[11:35 - 11:39]
look into this further the scientific literature was
[11:39 - 11:45]
conflict you will sense they Army studies
[11:45 - 11:53]
during World War 2. There had been additional work extensive work done at Walter
[11:53 - 11:58]
Reed. This did not seem to indicate that at least for periods up
[11:58 - 12:02]
to 96 hours that a major
[12:02 - 12:07]
personality disorder could be produced by prolonged wakefulness.
[12:07 - 12:12]
The question then arose whether more extended periods of sleep deprivation
[12:12 - 12:17]
might produce the type of
[12:17 - 12:22]
mental disorder that could be exploited by a ruthless captor.
[12:22 - 12:31]
Scanty goes back to about 1896 but it's only been here and
[12:31 - 12:36]
there. And there have been a few individuals
[12:36 - 12:41]
who stayed awake a very long period of time but object of studies of
[12:41 - 12:45]
their cases were lacking. The first one to come to our
[12:45 - 12:50]
attention locally was when two radio announcers
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engaged in a marathon broadcasting contest at the time
[12:55 - 13:00]
of the Oklahoma Centennial semi centennial
[13:00 - 13:05]
and 19 57. These two men stayed awake one hundred
[13:05 - 13:08]
sixty eight and a half hours.
[13:08 - 13:14]
During the last 60 or 70 hours of this time they were
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both noted to be increasingly irrational
[13:18 - 13:23]
disorganized confused and generally to show the
[13:23 - 13:28]
signs of mental disturbance rather profound one and
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one which did not reverse itself immediately as the textbooks would have led us to expect.
[13:33 - 13:38]
In fact these cases came to our attention only when one man reported for
[13:38 - 13:42]
treatment. After six weeks had gone by because he had
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persistent episodes of blackouts and
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loss of ability to do is every day work as a radio broadcaster.
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And this case was reported in
[13:59 - 14:03]
what detail we had today American Medical Association.
[14:03 - 14:08]
But since we hadn't been on the spot this so to
[14:08 - 14:13]
speak we still are frustrated in our desire to learn exactly
[14:13 - 14:18]
what changes take place in a human being who approaches the limits and
[14:18 - 14:23]
Durrance with regard to sleep deprivation. In other
[14:23 - 14:28]
words a person who is put under the most extreme stress in so far as
[14:28 - 14:31]
this can be called a stress and I'm sure it can be.
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No one would argue about that.
[14:35 - 14:40]
Golden opportunity came last January when Mr.
[14:40 - 14:45]
Peter trip and New York radio broadcaster and
[14:45 - 14:50]
record spinner undertook to stay
[14:50 - 14:55]
awake for two hundred hours and marathon broadcast
[14:55 - 15:00]
for the March of Dimes campaign.
[15:00 - 15:04]
A team of scientists was assembled to study Mr.
[15:04 - 15:09]
Tripp during this. Since he insisted
[15:09 - 15:14]
on going ahead with it after we had all advised him not to and and apprised him
[15:14 - 15:16]
of the dangers involved.
[15:16 - 15:23]
He was studied extensively from psychological medical
[15:23 - 15:28]
physiological biochemical points of view
[15:28 - 15:34]
and was under constant observation by a team of psychiatrists psychiatric nurses
[15:34 - 15:38]
psychologists and assorted scientists for a total
[15:38 - 15:40]
period of about two weeks.
[15:40 - 15:45]
It's included in the baseline period of eight and a half
[15:45 - 15:49]
days that he actually did succeed in staying awake
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and the recovery period afterwards.
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Now there is an enormous body of data that we have
[15:59 - 16:04]
accumulated from the study much of it is not
[16:04 - 16:08]
analyzed and some of it is analyzed but not
[16:08 - 16:13]
coordinated with the rest. So I can't give you any
[16:13 - 16:19]
final answer. But there are few things that I can tell you that we
[16:19 - 16:23]
learn from Mr. Tripp's ordeal. The most important general
[16:23 - 16:27]
statement is that after about four days
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even healthy well-adjusted
[16:33 - 16:38]
and highly motivated man will inevitably
[16:38 - 16:43]
begin to disorganize mentally it becomes impossible
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for a person to continue.
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To test reality successfully after that
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period of time. We learned that he effects
[16:59 - 17:01]
of prolonged wakefulness.
[17:01 - 17:07]
Three in so far as that sleep is concerned.
[17:07 - 17:13]
First there's an increasing burden of sleepiness that anyone who's had to stay awake a long period of
[17:13 - 17:18]
time understands the second. And there are
[17:18 - 17:23]
little brief episodes of sleep that the Walter Reed
[17:23 - 17:27]
scientists have called micro Sleeps which are almost like little
[17:27 - 17:32]
fits or seizures during which a person may appear to be going about
[17:32 - 17:37]
his business but does sell for two or three second period
[17:37 - 17:42]
automatically and during that time like Lady Macbeth walking in
[17:42 - 17:47]
her sleep her eyes are open but their sense is shot.
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During these brief micro sleeps a person is
[17:53 - 17:58]
behaving really awake but he's unable to deal with
[17:58 - 18:03]
the real environment at all during that period of time something he's supposed to be watching for
[18:03 - 18:07]
he'll miss it. An important thing for people who want
[18:07 - 18:12]
to drive day and night to keep in mind
[18:12 - 18:17]
especially at high speeds. In the third and in
[18:17 - 18:21]
some ways the most important finding. However with regard to
[18:21 - 18:27]
the mental effects. Is that a progressive
[18:27 - 18:32]
deterioration occurs involving the entire
[18:32 - 18:38]
gamut of capacities to deal with the real world.
[18:38 - 18:42]
Next trip experienced a wide variety of mental symptoms and these became
[18:42 - 18:48]
steadily worse as time went on. During the nights when he was usually
[18:48 - 18:53]
asleep they were worse than they were during the day. But
[18:53 - 18:58]
even with the ups and downs of the diurnal cycle which persists even when you're awake.
[18:58 - 19:03]
The overall picture was one of a progressive disorganized patient.
[19:03 - 19:09]
I mean by the time Mr. Chip had been awake a hundred hours he was
[19:09 - 19:14]
seeing things that weren't there. He recognized these as hallucinations
[19:14 - 19:19]
and didn't believe that they were truly important. By the time he'd been
[19:19 - 19:24]
awake one hundred and ninety hours he was
[19:24 - 19:28]
convinced that the things he saw had real Letty
[19:28 - 19:33]
and that they must have been put there for a purpose that there must be a plot against him.
[19:33 - 19:38]
And he showed all the classical symptoms. Mentally ill
[19:38 - 19:43]
person delusions hallucinations ideas of reference
[19:43 - 19:48]
disorientation in time and space. There are even times when he didn't know who
[19:48 - 19:53]
he was now. Along
[19:53 - 19:58]
with this went a series of
[19:58 - 20:04]
changes in ability to perform on a wide variety of psychological tests.
[20:04 - 20:09]
We discovered for example that vigilance is much more sensitive then
[20:09 - 20:14]
for example reaction time which holds up pretty well. If you
[20:14 - 20:19]
spot a danger you can react to it but you may not spot it.
[20:19 - 20:26]
Similarly we found out that certain aspects of bodily function.
[20:26 - 20:31]
For example the electrocardiogram were completely unaffected by this
[20:31 - 20:37]
tremendous ordeal but that the brain
[20:37 - 20:41]
waves electroencephalogram were profoundly
[20:41 - 20:46]
affected and that indeed there was a great deal of evidence
[20:46 - 20:51]
for a major disruption of brain function. It was this
[20:51 - 20:56]
that went along with the mental changes that we were able to see clinically.
[20:56 - 21:03]
There were also a number of other studies chemical studies and so on they were not
[21:03 - 21:07]
yet able to report. But in the ten
[21:07 - 21:12]
months that have passed since Mr. Tripp's
[21:12 - 21:17]
experience already a number of leads that were opened up
[21:17 - 21:21]
from that study have been pursued with profit.
[21:21 - 21:26]
For example it was found that after Mr. trip planned they went to sleep
[21:26 - 21:32]
he dreamed a surprising amount of the time. Dr.
[21:32 - 21:36]
William Dement of Mt. Sinai Hospital has been studying dreams
[21:36 - 21:43]
and who measured Mr. Tripp's dreaming during the 48 hours after
[21:43 - 21:45]
he was allowed to go to sleep.
[21:45 - 21:53]
Thought that it appeared as though he seemed to be catching up on his dreaming
[21:53 - 21:58]
as well as on his sleeping. And it occurred to Dr. Dement that there
[21:58 - 22:03]
may be such a thing as a requirement and that a person who is kept awake
[22:03 - 22:08]
a long period of time may also be deprived of his dreaming time as well as of his
[22:08 - 22:13]
sleeping time. Since he has been pursuing this issue
[22:13 - 22:18]
and has raised a great many interesting new questions and has turned up a
[22:18 - 22:22]
good deal of important new information about they
[22:22 - 22:28]
need that every person has to dream every night.
[22:28 - 22:33]
I cite this as merely one example of a way in
[22:33 - 22:38]
which by this route we came from.
[22:38 - 22:43]
A requirement to understand what was happening to men under stress in war
[22:43 - 22:49]
to a situation in which we are developing new insights into our human
[22:49 - 22:54]
nature and insights which may have particular application in the
[22:54 - 22:57]
treatment of the mentally ill.
[22:57 - 23:02]
Deprivation of sleep is only one form of stress. One that all of us have
[23:02 - 23:07]
experience. However the stress produced in this instance be compared
[23:07 - 23:12]
to other types of stress are the results the same or similar under different
[23:12 - 23:13]
conditions.
[23:13 - 23:18]
Again Dr. West said well actually we don't know and we're trying to
[23:18 - 23:24]
find out. Certain things are obviously required for life.
[23:24 - 23:30]
And impairing the supply of the will produce profound
[23:30 - 23:34]
changes in human behavior including mental functions where water
[23:34 - 23:39]
food oxygen and sleep
[23:39 - 23:45]
are for things without which people cannot live on this globe.
[23:45 - 23:50]
Now when it comes to. Other functions
[23:50 - 23:55]
of the environment. They get into.
[23:55 - 24:00]
The significance of past experience in interpretating the
[24:00 - 24:05]
meaning of events. Loud noises
[24:05 - 24:10]
which are explosions threatening life and be very stressful.
[24:10 - 24:17]
Loud noises which are blasting for new construction may not be.
[24:17 - 24:21]
However I think it's interesting to me
[24:21 - 24:27]
that together with the sleep deprivation research here at the University of
[24:27 - 24:31]
Oklahoma Medical Center we have become interested in another
[24:31 - 24:37]
issue which seems to be very closely
[24:37 - 24:42]
related to it. Dr. J. T. Surely a
[24:42 - 24:46]
professor in the department here has been cutting people
[24:46 - 24:51]
off from their environment. By
[24:51 - 24:56]
submerging them in a tank of water and body temperature for prolonged periods of time.
[24:56 - 25:02]
This work which derives from the experiments of Donald have
[25:02 - 25:07]
at McGill in sensory isolation and
[25:07 - 25:12]
using a method that is the underwater method that was
[25:12 - 25:17]
worked out by Dr. John Leslie at the National Institutes of
[25:17 - 25:21]
Mental Health seeks to determine the degree
[25:21 - 25:27]
and manner in which every individual. Requires a certain
[25:27 - 25:32]
amount of varying stimulation from the environment. If he is
[25:32 - 25:36]
to function normally it now appears that in a relatively
[25:36 - 25:41]
short period of time a few hours at the most normal
[25:41 - 25:45]
person who is completely cut off from his surroundings in this way will begin to
[25:45 - 25:50]
experience some of the symptoms of mental derangement
[25:50 - 25:56]
similar to those experienced by a person who is deprived of sleep for days
[25:56 - 25:59]
and days. Similar to those
[25:59 - 26:04]
produced by the administration of drugs
[26:04 - 26:10]
which like LSD or mescaline impair a
[26:10 - 26:15]
person's contact with the environment in another way by poisoning the
[26:15 - 26:19]
sensory apparatus. The
[26:19 - 26:24]
number of other areas of research are bringing us
[26:24 - 26:29]
closer and closer to a kind of universal picture
[26:29 - 26:34]
of the nature of the relationship between man and his environment.
[26:34 - 26:39]
This relationship is a terribly complicated one of course and the
[26:39 - 26:44]
adaptation of a man to his environment is one which involves a
[26:44 - 26:48]
great many different systems and all the systems from the
[26:48 - 26:53]
atomic level the chemicals in the body the molecules
[26:53 - 26:58]
the organs operating
[26:58 - 27:03]
individually and the body operating as a whole. And then people
[27:03 - 27:08]
operating in groups represent a series of systems from the simplest to
[27:08 - 27:12]
the most complex. And these systems all of which are
[27:12 - 27:18]
involved in adaptation of man to his environment.
[27:18 - 27:24]
Simultaneously in the most complex
[27:24 - 27:28]
relationship to each other these
[27:28 - 27:33]
transactions among different systems that add
[27:33 - 27:37]
up to the whole meaning of a human person represents
[27:37 - 27:42]
a total sphere of behavioral science. And it is.
[27:42 - 27:49]
Through the development of behavioral science in such a
[27:49 - 27:54]
frame of reference that I feel we have
[27:54 - 27:59]
our chance not only to do something about the terrible and growing problem of
[27:59 - 28:02]
mental illness but perhaps to learn some something about
[28:02 - 28:08]
human nature that may enable us to preserve our race
[28:08 - 28:10]
from self extinction.
[28:10 - 28:15]
Today we have heard Dr. Lewis J West discussing current research and
[28:15 - 28:20]
investigation into stress situations presented to man. Earlier
[28:20 - 28:25]
in the program we heard a comment by Dr. Robert feely. Next
[28:25 - 28:30]
week you will hear Rev. C. Leslie Glenn Dr. Earl Loomis and
[28:30 - 28:35]
Reverend George Christian Andersen as they discuss religion and
[28:35 - 28:39]
science. On the next programme from the series human
[28:39 - 28:44]
behavior social and medical research consultant for this
[28:44 - 28:48]
program was Professor Arthur W. Melton of the University of
[28:48 - 28:53]
Michigan Department of Psychology. We extend our special thanks to the Mental Health
[28:53 - 28:58]
Research Institute of the University of Michigan for their assistance.
[28:58 - 29:03]
When Philip speaking asking that you join us next week and thanking you for being with us
[29:03 - 29:08]
at this time this program has been produced by the University of Michigan
[29:08 - 29:13]
broadcasting service under a grant in aid from the National Educational Television and Radio
[29:13 - 29:18]
Center in cooperation with the National Association of educational broadcasters.
[29:18 - 29:20]
This is the NEA E.B. Radio Network.
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