Arthur S. Flemming

The following tape recorded programs distributed through the facilities of the National Association of

educational broadcasters.

Oral essays on education a dynamic radio series designed to present leading

personalities of our society as they attempt to discover the scope of problems which confront

modern education. This week Dr. James CENTERA of Michigan State University College of

Education will interview Mr. Arthur F. Fleming secretary of Health Education and

Welfare in the Eisenhower administration who advocates the pursuit of excellence in

education.

And now here is Dr. Tim.

Mr. Secretary the situation in the United States is a rather unusual

one dealing with education in particular and with many of the

aspects of public good being or welfare in particular because of the

relationships that people tend to pull together whether they really exist or not in one of the

relationships seems rather obvious. And if it isn't please react

that there is a direct relationship between education and the way of life we

live in the United States that as our educational pattern goes on the

upswing and more people are educated that the same thing happens to our way of life. Do

you see any truth in this. Would you react to it

as a matter of principle.

Well I think your question is a very provocative one and

personally I would certainly agree with the basic

assumption that is involved in your question. There

definitely is a relationship between education and progress in the field of

education and our way of life in this country.

I suspect that we could take as an illustration or as an example of that

fact. The relationship between education the

progress that it makes and the progress or

sometimes the lack of progress in the field of government

because certainly with our government being

structured in the way in which it ends with our government resting back on

the basic concept of the consent of the governed and the

participation of the governed in the governmental process

there's a definite relationship between education

and the strength or weakness. OB our government.

We're thinking always of course in terms of

campaigns whether they are campaigns at the local level or

whether they are campaigns at the state level or the national level.

And as we think in terms of campaigns often times our attention is

focused we think primarily on personalities

and we're endeavoring to decide as between persons

but actually of course underlying this concentration on personalities

is a interest in and an involvement in

certain basic issues. Now when the

voter goes to the polls and cast his vote is

his vote not to be cast on the basis of some rather

meaningless slogan that somebody has use or

is it going to rest back on a very careful

considered evaluation of the evidence on both sides of the issues

and a determination arrived at by him as a

result of that rather careful analysis.

Well it seems to me that education is

bound to play has played of Carson is bound to continue to play a very

important part in determining the answer to that basic

question. For example education it seems to me plays a very important

part in determining what the motivation of the citizen is going to

be. Does he have a clear idea of what we

mean by the concept of freedom. Does he have a

clear idea of the responsibilities that such a SCMS need to

recognize and to discharge.

If this concept of freedom is to be preserved. While I

feel that to a very large extent the question of whether or not he

does have a clear idea of the concept of

freedom rushed back on the kind of job that has been done

in our educational system in the broad field of the social sciences.

If we've done a good job then I think you'll have a good understanding of this

concept of freedom that is he will have rediscovered it for himself and it seems to me that each

generation must rediscover for itself the concept of freedom and he not

only will have this rediscovered that concept of freedom but he'll have a pretty

clear idea of what his obligations are.

If this concept is to be preserved for example I think he'll see a

relationship between the concept of freedom and its preservation and the opportunity that

is afforded him to vote. And of course we know that there are still a good many people in our

country who don't exercise their right of franchise. And I think to a certain extent that is a

reflection on the failure of our educational system to reach them and

bring them to the place where they are motivated and to vote. Also of course

we know going back to my opening comments that there are a great many persons who will

decide issues. And who will cast our votes accordingly on the basis of a

slogan that somebody develops instead of a careful analysis and

weighing all of the evidence well.

People who do that. It seems to me have not developed a clear

understanding of what their obligations are as

citizens and their failure to develop that is a

failure of our educational system.

Now up to now I'm kind of talking negatively here as though the educational system

had fallen down on the job and that people generally were not

recognizing the obligations that they have to preserve this

concept of freedom. Actually you and I know that there are

literally millions of people in our country who have read rediscovered this concept

of freedom who do have a clear understanding of what their obligations are.

If this concept of freedom is to be preserved and it's because of

this fact that our country has been able to move forward and I believe that our

educational system is untitled to our great deal of credit for the fact that there are millions of

persons who do have this kind of attitude toward

their obligations and responsibilities as

citizens when I recognize that this is only one phase of our way of

life. But it happens to be an aspect of our way of life with which I have

been rather intimately connected over the years so I use that

as an example. I recognize that this educational process

is a process that goes on outside of formal institutions as well as

inside those formal institutions and sometimes the process that goes on on

the outside of our educational institutions is even more significant than what goes

on on the inside although I think it is also fair to say that it is the educational

institution that stimulates oftentimes the educational process that goes on

outside of the educational institution.

But so I think I come around to this point that in terms of

the future of our way of life in terms of the way in which. Our way of

life continues to unfold. It's terribly important to

have a clear understanding of the approach of our

educational institutions. Shall we say to their mission.

It's very very important for us to understand what the objectives

of our educational institutions are.

And you know it's at that point that I have the feeling that all of

us must definitely keep in

mind the fact that an educational institution is essential a

a community of scholars and I use the word scholar in its broad sense

not in its narrow sense. And the

longer I have the opportunity of observing what goes on in the field of education

the more experience I have in the field of education. Mark and Ben Stein I

am of the fact that. It's very very important for us

to make sure that we give these literally

thousands tens of thousands of communities of scholars

the opportunity of working out as groups

the educational objectives of their particular

institutions. And then of course it's incumbent upon all of us who are

interested in the field of education to provide them with the kind of

facilities and the equipment and the kind of working conditions the kind of support

using support in its broad sense that they need in order to achieve

their objectives. Now of course if we pray approach it in this way. We

know that the objectives well vary somewhat from one educational

community to another. And of course I think that is a strength of education in our

country. The fact that there is that opportunity for a

variance. I don't mean to suggest that. We've

got anything approaching a chaotic situation. I know that we

have regional accrediting associations that set standards for

our educational institutions at all levels and of course that's all to the

good. I think on the whole that these associations render a very fine

service. I'm glad that there are private associations as

contrast and with governmental bodies but within

the framework of these standards that they insist on it seems to me that we

must give these communities of scholars the opportunity of

developing their objectives developing ways and means of achieving these

objectives and then we must give them the very finest kind of

support to give you want to illustration of what I have in mind along this

line. There's a a phrase that I think quite a number of us

have been using quite a little in the past few years and that's

the expression the pursuit of excellence in the field of education. Back

I think maybe the first time that it was really given

the first time that the spotlight was really turned on it very effectively was and the

Rockefeller Brothers report dealing with the field of education.

Gardner The president of the Carnegie Corporation was the

head of the task force that developed that report. And I think that that phrase

struck a very responsive chord. And

as far as our American people our citizens are

concerned we've been concerned about the quality of

education over a period of the last two years maybe to a greater extent than ever

before Sputnik played its part as we all know in

developing that concern. Now of course some people of the media jump to the

conclusion that everything is wrong with the American educational system and that nothing's right

whether it I don't agree with that school of thought by any means. It's

my feeling that. Everything considered we've developed one of

the greatest if not the greatest educational systems in the world. But having said that

I also recognize that there are standards of performance that we should achieve that we have not

yet achieved. And I do think that there has been a tendency

within the field of education and sometimes a bit too

willing to settle for mediocrity rather than to and so stonily

pursuit of excellence. I don't think that by and large faculties have been

responsible for that I think that these communities of scholars that I've been talking about

by and large have had their attention focused

on the pursuit of excellence but forces have tended to work their way into our

educational institutions that have gotten in the way of

this desire on the part of these communities and scholars to pursue excellence

where both of us are familiar with institutions of higher education.

We know that there is such a thing as alumni putting pressure on an

institution to settle for mediocrity in a particular instance instances

we know that there are situations do arise where

parents put pressure on. An educational institution

to settle for a mediocrity. We also know that there are those who support

educational institutions whether they are members of state

legislatures or in the case of private institutions whether they

are private contributors to those institutions or others who

have an interest in the institution. They take an interest in certain

individuals and they think that as far as those individuals are concerned that

the institution should be willing to settle for mediocrity. This

is something that it seems to me that we've got to fight and it seems to me that

those of us who are parents or our alumni who are citizens that are interested in

the field of education have got to make sure of the fact that we don't

contribute. To a trend in the direction

in some instances of settling for mediocrity now that the cross-section of

our citizens don't want our educational institutions to settle for mediocrity in my

judgment I think that they want our educational institutions

to pursue excellence. And I feel that

if we'll give these communities of scholars

these members our faculties whether you're talking about an elementary school a secondary

school an institution of higher education whatever type of institution you're talking

about. If we'll give them the opportunity of setting these

standards that are consistent with the pursuit of excellence and that if we'll support them

that we will as a nation move definitely in that direction.

There's something else that probably is significant in this respect and that is that administration on the

part of superintendents of school systems across our country there seem to be a

very fast number of them coming rather than from a

specific field of study.

They seem to come from other fields within our school system such as

coaching or such as band or music directors.

Have you noticed such a movement does it seem to have a play.

Yes what's happening there is simply this that those who have

the responsibility of recruiting people for an administrative

position such as principal of schools or superintendent of schools have come to the

place where they are trying to identify

a person. Who have a Purnell a demonstrated their

ability to recognize the basic processes of

administration and to adjust to those basic processes. Well certainly a

conch is an administrator and he's got a pretty tough administrative

job and certainly the person who has responsibility

for the school orchestra

has got an administrative job and as we can all and as we all

know rather a difficult one and so it seems to me that

this is a very sound trend in the direction of identifying

people who are engaged in the administrative process then

evaluating their success in dealing with the processes of

administration and if they feel that they have handled them satisfactorily moving them in

tomorrow important administrative posts in your comments then

about having the direction of education

selected and enhanced and pointed out an effort made to arrive in

that direction as being a sort of a self-directed activity on the part of this community of

scholars with the definition we have.

You seemed to say or indicate that with this splintering which is

possible under such a circumstance and benefit as you pointed out this is precisely what

we do want. What kind of organizational structure or what force is

involved in this. To point out holes directions in which no one

is going that need to be covered or to pull these organizations

together so that the commonalities that they all have are understandable to each.

Some have already said that some private foundations are performing this function and

you somewhat alluded to that by your suggestion that they will select some or fewer

such people to carry out their own purposes. Some on the other have and have indicated that

this is a governmental function. Do you feel that this is properly then a

governmental function to pull these commonalities of these varying

groups of scholars in pursuit of excellence together. Or is that a

private enterprise. Or is that something that can rightfully be turned over to the

organizations themselves.

Well I think they probably all have a part to play.

Take the educational institution itself. First of all it seems to me that.

If your faculties are organized properly

even within our large institutions of higher

education it is possible for them to

take a look at the whole and to make

a contribution in the direction of bringing all of these various

parts together and having them focused on the

attainment of a single objective. I think

these regional accrediting bodies play a role along this line because

after all they take a look at the institution as a whole.

They say that the institution as a whole must live up

to certain standards.

If it is to be accredited then of course are in the

field of higher education. I think our various

organizations of institutions of higher education play a part. Secondly the

land grant. Association plays a part with the land grant

colleges. The American Association of universities plays a part with a very

small group of large and outstanding universities. The

American Association of Colleges plays a very real part I know

from personal experience in connection with the life of the

what we think of as the more and the independent liberal arts colleges

and then certainly the American Council on Education is playing a part

today as it brings under its tan all types of institutions

in the field of higher education. But that and I certainly

agree with you and I certainly had this in mind that our foundations

have played a very real role along this line. After all they have

tried to step back and take a look at the total picture and they've tried to

identify what they regard as some of the opportunities that

possibly we are not taking advantage of to the extent that we should.

And then I feel that the government has a role to play it's a role of leadership

not a role of direction not a role of saying to educational

institutions this is what you must do or this is what you should do. But

surely the government is in a position where it can step back and look at our total national

life. It can evaluate possibly as no other

institution in our life can do the relationship between education and our way of

life and it can identify strengths it can identify

weaknesses. I think that the National Defense Education Act for

example is a good illustration of that. It sought

does identify what we're regarded as certain weaknesses in our

total educational life. And it is and I tried to

suggest ways and means of correcting those.

Take the Office of Education in the Department of Health Education and Welfare You know the offices been in

existence for a considerable period of time. It's one of the really one of the

only agencies of the government. But for many many years it was

a fact gathering in fact disseminating office

and with a few exceptions here and there it was felt that it should confine

itself to fact gathering in fact dissemination.

But certainly in recent years the character of The Office

says changed materially. The National Defense Education Act of course is a perfect

illustration of it. As you know that act is quite far flung

in terms of the activities that are carried on by the government under it.

And those are activities that are carried on under the direction of

the Office of Education. But in addition to what's going on in the

Office of Education there's a lot of outs going on that's having an impact

on the field of education. Now the question very naturally follows

is the government going to confine its interest and its activities

to providing financial support. While in the field

of medical research a very interesting system has been worked out for the

making of these grants. If you were in a medical school and had an

idea for a research project you would

through your university file an application with the National

Institutes of Health. They would then refer to our Study Committee now that study committee

is made up entirely of persons from outside the government experts in this particular

area. So in other words you would be in the process of being judged by a jury of your

peers as far as your project is concerned.

Then this study group if it likes the project makes a favorable recommendation

to an advisory council and that advisory council is made up partially of

outstanding professional people and partially of laymen. They take a

look at it and then they make the recommendation to the surgeon general. The surgeon

general under the law cannot allocate a cent unless he's

got favorable recommendations from a study group and the advisory council. On the

other hand he can refuse to follow the advice of the advisory council

that a gripe should be made. But as you can see

this large sum of money in reality. Is being administered

in terms of I mean in terms of the very basic fundamental decisions

by groups of persons who are outside of government who

are not within the governmental us structure.

Now it was set up this way deliberately in order

to minimize the possibility of governmental

interference in the whole area of medical research

designed to minimize the possibility of any in a firms where the concept of

academic freedom in this area of medical research. And

I think by and large and I won't qualify it I think they've achieved that objective.

Now I recognize however that if government was so

disposed in view of the fact that it is playing such a large

percentage of the total bill that it could

yield to the temptation of you know fairing well

what we would normally think of as matters that should

come so lay within the purview of an academic institution.

My whole attitude on this I think I can summarize in this way.

There isn't any doubt in my mind at all but that in the total field of education

it is going to be necessary for the federal government to become a more active

partner than it has been in the past.

There isn't any doubt in my mind at all but that it is going to have to make

fun of vailable in order to make it possible

for our educational institutions at all levels to take full

advantage of all their opportunities. I believe that it can

do this without any interference at all with

academic freedom. But I also recognize

that it could be carried on in such a way as

to interfere with the concept of academic freedom in this

area. As in all other areas. Eternal vigilance is the

price of liberty and the academic community and all who are

interested in the academic community have got to make sure of the fact that our

system of checks and balances operates in this government in such a way

as to.

And sure I get asked at the end of ferrets with academic freedom on the part of the

federal government simply because of the fact that it is making some funds available

in order to what Able educational institutions to take full advantage

of the opportunities that confront him in these day.

You have heard Mr Arthur F. Fleming secretary of Health Education and Welfare at

the Eisenhower administration. Speaking of the pursuit of excellence in American

education Mr Fleming was interviewed by Dr. James and Tara of the Michigan State

University College of Education. Next week Mr. William Benton

returns to discuss attitudes and policies and compassing education or

less A's on education was produced by Wayne S. Wayne and Patrick Ford

distribution is made through the National Association of educational broadcasters.

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