- Series
- Oral essays on education
- Air Date
- 1961-02-28
- Duration
- 00:29:26
- Episode Description
- Arthur S. Flemming, former Secretary of Health, Education and Welfare, on "Pursuit of Excellence."
- Series Description
- The thoughts of distinguished Americans in a survey of American eduction.
- Subject(s)
- Creator(s)
- Michigan State University (Producer)
- Contributors
- Flemming, Arthur S. (Arthur Sherwood), 1905-1996 (Interviewee)Tintera, James (Interviewer)
- Genre(s)
- Geographic Region(s)
- regions
- Time Period
- 1961-1970
[00:05 - 00:10]
The following tape recorded programs distributed through the facilities of the National Association of
[00:10 - 00:17]
educational broadcasters.
[00:17 - 00:21]
Oral essays on education a dynamic radio series designed to present leading
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personalities of our society as they attempt to discover the scope of problems which confront
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modern education. This week Dr. James CENTERA of Michigan State University College of
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Education will interview Mr. Arthur F. Fleming secretary of Health Education and
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Welfare in the Eisenhower administration who advocates the pursuit of excellence in
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education.
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And now here is Dr. Tim.
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Mr. Secretary the situation in the United States is a rather unusual
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one dealing with education in particular and with many of the
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aspects of public good being or welfare in particular because of the
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relationships that people tend to pull together whether they really exist or not in one of the
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relationships seems rather obvious. And if it isn't please react
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that there is a direct relationship between education and the way of life we
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live in the United States that as our educational pattern goes on the
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upswing and more people are educated that the same thing happens to our way of life. Do
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you see any truth in this. Would you react to it
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as a matter of principle.
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Well I think your question is a very provocative one and
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personally I would certainly agree with the basic
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assumption that is involved in your question. There
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definitely is a relationship between education and progress in the field of
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education and our way of life in this country.
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I suspect that we could take as an illustration or as an example of that
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fact. The relationship between education the
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progress that it makes and the progress or
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sometimes the lack of progress in the field of government
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because certainly with our government being
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structured in the way in which it ends with our government resting back on
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the basic concept of the consent of the governed and the
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participation of the governed in the governmental process
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there's a definite relationship between education
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and the strength or weakness. OB our government.
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We're thinking always of course in terms of
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campaigns whether they are campaigns at the local level or
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whether they are campaigns at the state level or the national level.
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And as we think in terms of campaigns often times our attention is
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focused we think primarily on personalities
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and we're endeavoring to decide as between persons
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but actually of course underlying this concentration on personalities
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is a interest in and an involvement in
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certain basic issues. Now when the
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voter goes to the polls and cast his vote is
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his vote not to be cast on the basis of some rather
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meaningless slogan that somebody has use or
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is it going to rest back on a very careful
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considered evaluation of the evidence on both sides of the issues
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and a determination arrived at by him as a
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result of that rather careful analysis.
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Well it seems to me that education is
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bound to play has played of Carson is bound to continue to play a very
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important part in determining the answer to that basic
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question. For example education it seems to me plays a very important
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part in determining what the motivation of the citizen is going to
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be. Does he have a clear idea of what we
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mean by the concept of freedom. Does he have a
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clear idea of the responsibilities that such a SCMS need to
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recognize and to discharge.
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If this concept of freedom is to be preserved. While I
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feel that to a very large extent the question of whether or not he
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does have a clear idea of the concept of
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freedom rushed back on the kind of job that has been done
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in our educational system in the broad field of the social sciences.
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If we've done a good job then I think you'll have a good understanding of this
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concept of freedom that is he will have rediscovered it for himself and it seems to me that each
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generation must rediscover for itself the concept of freedom and he not
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only will have this rediscovered that concept of freedom but he'll have a pretty
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clear idea of what his obligations are.
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If this concept is to be preserved for example I think he'll see a
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relationship between the concept of freedom and its preservation and the opportunity that
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is afforded him to vote. And of course we know that there are still a good many people in our
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country who don't exercise their right of franchise. And I think to a certain extent that is a
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reflection on the failure of our educational system to reach them and
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bring them to the place where they are motivated and to vote. Also of course
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we know going back to my opening comments that there are a great many persons who will
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decide issues. And who will cast our votes accordingly on the basis of a
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slogan that somebody develops instead of a careful analysis and
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weighing all of the evidence well.
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People who do that. It seems to me have not developed a clear
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understanding of what their obligations are as
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citizens and their failure to develop that is a
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failure of our educational system.
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Now up to now I'm kind of talking negatively here as though the educational system
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had fallen down on the job and that people generally were not
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recognizing the obligations that they have to preserve this
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concept of freedom. Actually you and I know that there are
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literally millions of people in our country who have read rediscovered this concept
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of freedom who do have a clear understanding of what their obligations are.
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If this concept of freedom is to be preserved and it's because of
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this fact that our country has been able to move forward and I believe that our
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educational system is untitled to our great deal of credit for the fact that there are millions of
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persons who do have this kind of attitude toward
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their obligations and responsibilities as
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citizens when I recognize that this is only one phase of our way of
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life. But it happens to be an aspect of our way of life with which I have
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been rather intimately connected over the years so I use that
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as an example. I recognize that this educational process
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is a process that goes on outside of formal institutions as well as
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inside those formal institutions and sometimes the process that goes on on
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the outside of our educational institutions is even more significant than what goes
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on on the inside although I think it is also fair to say that it is the educational
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institution that stimulates oftentimes the educational process that goes on
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outside of the educational institution.
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But so I think I come around to this point that in terms of
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the future of our way of life in terms of the way in which. Our way of
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life continues to unfold. It's terribly important to
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have a clear understanding of the approach of our
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educational institutions. Shall we say to their mission.
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It's very very important for us to understand what the objectives
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of our educational institutions are.
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And you know it's at that point that I have the feeling that all of
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us must definitely keep in
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mind the fact that an educational institution is essential a
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a community of scholars and I use the word scholar in its broad sense
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not in its narrow sense. And the
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longer I have the opportunity of observing what goes on in the field of education
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the more experience I have in the field of education. Mark and Ben Stein I
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am of the fact that. It's very very important for us
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to make sure that we give these literally
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thousands tens of thousands of communities of scholars
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the opportunity of working out as groups
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the educational objectives of their particular
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institutions. And then of course it's incumbent upon all of us who are
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interested in the field of education to provide them with the kind of
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facilities and the equipment and the kind of working conditions the kind of support
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using support in its broad sense that they need in order to achieve
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their objectives. Now of course if we pray approach it in this way. We
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know that the objectives well vary somewhat from one educational
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community to another. And of course I think that is a strength of education in our
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country. The fact that there is that opportunity for a
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variance. I don't mean to suggest that. We've
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got anything approaching a chaotic situation. I know that we
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have regional accrediting associations that set standards for
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our educational institutions at all levels and of course that's all to the
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good. I think on the whole that these associations render a very fine
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service. I'm glad that there are private associations as
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contrast and with governmental bodies but within
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the framework of these standards that they insist on it seems to me that we
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must give these communities of scholars the opportunity of
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developing their objectives developing ways and means of achieving these
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objectives and then we must give them the very finest kind of
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support to give you want to illustration of what I have in mind along this
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line. There's a a phrase that I think quite a number of us
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have been using quite a little in the past few years and that's
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the expression the pursuit of excellence in the field of education. Back
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I think maybe the first time that it was really given
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the first time that the spotlight was really turned on it very effectively was and the
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Rockefeller Brothers report dealing with the field of education.
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Gardner The president of the Carnegie Corporation was the
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head of the task force that developed that report. And I think that that phrase
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struck a very responsive chord. And
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as far as our American people our citizens are
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concerned we've been concerned about the quality of
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education over a period of the last two years maybe to a greater extent than ever
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before Sputnik played its part as we all know in
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developing that concern. Now of course some people of the media jump to the
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conclusion that everything is wrong with the American educational system and that nothing's right
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whether it I don't agree with that school of thought by any means. It's
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my feeling that. Everything considered we've developed one of
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the greatest if not the greatest educational systems in the world. But having said that
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I also recognize that there are standards of performance that we should achieve that we have not
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yet achieved. And I do think that there has been a tendency
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within the field of education and sometimes a bit too
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willing to settle for mediocrity rather than to and so stonily
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pursuit of excellence. I don't think that by and large faculties have been
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responsible for that I think that these communities of scholars that I've been talking about
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by and large have had their attention focused
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on the pursuit of excellence but forces have tended to work their way into our
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educational institutions that have gotten in the way of
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this desire on the part of these communities and scholars to pursue excellence
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where both of us are familiar with institutions of higher education.
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We know that there is such a thing as alumni putting pressure on an
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institution to settle for mediocrity in a particular instance instances
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we know that there are situations do arise where
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parents put pressure on. An educational institution
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to settle for a mediocrity. We also know that there are those who support
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educational institutions whether they are members of state
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legislatures or in the case of private institutions whether they
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are private contributors to those institutions or others who
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have an interest in the institution. They take an interest in certain
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individuals and they think that as far as those individuals are concerned that
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the institution should be willing to settle for mediocrity. This
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is something that it seems to me that we've got to fight and it seems to me that
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those of us who are parents or our alumni who are citizens that are interested in
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the field of education have got to make sure of the fact that we don't
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contribute. To a trend in the direction
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in some instances of settling for mediocrity now that the cross-section of
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our citizens don't want our educational institutions to settle for mediocrity in my
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judgment I think that they want our educational institutions
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to pursue excellence. And I feel that
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if we'll give these communities of scholars
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these members our faculties whether you're talking about an elementary school a secondary
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school an institution of higher education whatever type of institution you're talking
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about. If we'll give them the opportunity of setting these
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standards that are consistent with the pursuit of excellence and that if we'll support them
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that we will as a nation move definitely in that direction.
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There's something else that probably is significant in this respect and that is that administration on the
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part of superintendents of school systems across our country there seem to be a
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very fast number of them coming rather than from a
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specific field of study.
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They seem to come from other fields within our school system such as
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coaching or such as band or music directors.
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Have you noticed such a movement does it seem to have a play.
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Yes what's happening there is simply this that those who have
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the responsibility of recruiting people for an administrative
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position such as principal of schools or superintendent of schools have come to the
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place where they are trying to identify
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a person. Who have a Purnell a demonstrated their
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ability to recognize the basic processes of
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administration and to adjust to those basic processes. Well certainly a
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conch is an administrator and he's got a pretty tough administrative
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job and certainly the person who has responsibility
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for the school orchestra
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has got an administrative job and as we can all and as we all
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know rather a difficult one and so it seems to me that
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this is a very sound trend in the direction of identifying
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people who are engaged in the administrative process then
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evaluating their success in dealing with the processes of
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administration and if they feel that they have handled them satisfactorily moving them in
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tomorrow important administrative posts in your comments then
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about having the direction of education
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selected and enhanced and pointed out an effort made to arrive in
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that direction as being a sort of a self-directed activity on the part of this community of
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scholars with the definition we have.
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You seemed to say or indicate that with this splintering which is
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possible under such a circumstance and benefit as you pointed out this is precisely what
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we do want. What kind of organizational structure or what force is
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involved in this. To point out holes directions in which no one
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is going that need to be covered or to pull these organizations
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together so that the commonalities that they all have are understandable to each.
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Some have already said that some private foundations are performing this function and
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you somewhat alluded to that by your suggestion that they will select some or fewer
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such people to carry out their own purposes. Some on the other have and have indicated that
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this is a governmental function. Do you feel that this is properly then a
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governmental function to pull these commonalities of these varying
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groups of scholars in pursuit of excellence together. Or is that a
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private enterprise. Or is that something that can rightfully be turned over to the
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organizations themselves.
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Well I think they probably all have a part to play.
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Take the educational institution itself. First of all it seems to me that.
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If your faculties are organized properly
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even within our large institutions of higher
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education it is possible for them to
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take a look at the whole and to make
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a contribution in the direction of bringing all of these various
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parts together and having them focused on the
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attainment of a single objective. I think
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these regional accrediting bodies play a role along this line because
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after all they take a look at the institution as a whole.
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They say that the institution as a whole must live up
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to certain standards.
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If it is to be accredited then of course are in the
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field of higher education. I think our various
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organizations of institutions of higher education play a part. Secondly the
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land grant. Association plays a part with the land grant
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colleges. The American Association of universities plays a part with a very
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small group of large and outstanding universities. The
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American Association of Colleges plays a very real part I know
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from personal experience in connection with the life of the
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what we think of as the more and the independent liberal arts colleges
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and then certainly the American Council on Education is playing a part
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today as it brings under its tan all types of institutions
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in the field of higher education. But that and I certainly
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agree with you and I certainly had this in mind that our foundations
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have played a very real role along this line. After all they have
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tried to step back and take a look at the total picture and they've tried to
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identify what they regard as some of the opportunities that
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possibly we are not taking advantage of to the extent that we should.
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And then I feel that the government has a role to play it's a role of leadership
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not a role of direction not a role of saying to educational
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institutions this is what you must do or this is what you should do. But
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surely the government is in a position where it can step back and look at our total national
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life. It can evaluate possibly as no other
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institution in our life can do the relationship between education and our way of
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life and it can identify strengths it can identify
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weaknesses. I think that the National Defense Education Act for
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example is a good illustration of that. It sought
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does identify what we're regarded as certain weaknesses in our
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total educational life. And it is and I tried to
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suggest ways and means of correcting those.
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Take the Office of Education in the Department of Health Education and Welfare You know the offices been in
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existence for a considerable period of time. It's one of the really one of the
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only agencies of the government. But for many many years it was
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a fact gathering in fact disseminating office
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and with a few exceptions here and there it was felt that it should confine
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itself to fact gathering in fact dissemination.
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But certainly in recent years the character of The Office
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says changed materially. The National Defense Education Act of course is a perfect
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illustration of it. As you know that act is quite far flung
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in terms of the activities that are carried on by the government under it.
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And those are activities that are carried on under the direction of
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the Office of Education. But in addition to what's going on in the
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Office of Education there's a lot of outs going on that's having an impact
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on the field of education. Now the question very naturally follows
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is the government going to confine its interest and its activities
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to providing financial support. While in the field
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of medical research a very interesting system has been worked out for the
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making of these grants. If you were in a medical school and had an
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idea for a research project you would
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through your university file an application with the National
[24:23 - 24:28]
Institutes of Health. They would then refer to our Study Committee now that study committee
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is made up entirely of persons from outside the government experts in this particular
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area. So in other words you would be in the process of being judged by a jury of your
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peers as far as your project is concerned.
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Then this study group if it likes the project makes a favorable recommendation
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to an advisory council and that advisory council is made up partially of
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outstanding professional people and partially of laymen. They take a
[24:57 - 25:02]
look at it and then they make the recommendation to the surgeon general. The surgeon
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general under the law cannot allocate a cent unless he's
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got favorable recommendations from a study group and the advisory council. On the
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other hand he can refuse to follow the advice of the advisory council
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that a gripe should be made. But as you can see
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this large sum of money in reality. Is being administered
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in terms of I mean in terms of the very basic fundamental decisions
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by groups of persons who are outside of government who
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are not within the governmental us structure.
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Now it was set up this way deliberately in order
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to minimize the possibility of governmental
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interference in the whole area of medical research
[25:55 - 26:01]
designed to minimize the possibility of any in a firms where the concept of
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academic freedom in this area of medical research. And
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I think by and large and I won't qualify it I think they've achieved that objective.
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Now I recognize however that if government was so
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disposed in view of the fact that it is playing such a large
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percentage of the total bill that it could
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yield to the temptation of you know fairing well
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what we would normally think of as matters that should
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come so lay within the purview of an academic institution.
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My whole attitude on this I think I can summarize in this way.
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There isn't any doubt in my mind at all but that in the total field of education
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it is going to be necessary for the federal government to become a more active
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partner than it has been in the past.
[27:04 - 27:07]
There isn't any doubt in my mind at all but that it is going to have to make
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fun of vailable in order to make it possible
[27:12 - 27:17]
for our educational institutions at all levels to take full
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advantage of all their opportunities. I believe that it can
[27:22 - 27:27]
do this without any interference at all with
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academic freedom. But I also recognize
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that it could be carried on in such a way as
[27:37 - 27:41]
to interfere with the concept of academic freedom in this
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area. As in all other areas. Eternal vigilance is the
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price of liberty and the academic community and all who are
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interested in the academic community have got to make sure of the fact that our
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system of checks and balances operates in this government in such a way
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as to.
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And sure I get asked at the end of ferrets with academic freedom on the part of the
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federal government simply because of the fact that it is making some funds available
[28:12 - 28:17]
in order to what Able educational institutions to take full advantage
[28:17 - 28:23]
of the opportunities that confront him in these day.
[28:23 - 28:28]
You have heard Mr Arthur F. Fleming secretary of Health Education and Welfare at
[28:28 - 28:32]
the Eisenhower administration. Speaking of the pursuit of excellence in American
[28:32 - 28:37]
education Mr Fleming was interviewed by Dr. James and Tara of the Michigan State
[28:37 - 28:42]
University College of Education. Next week Mr. William Benton
[28:42 - 28:46]
returns to discuss attitudes and policies and compassing education or
[28:46 - 28:51]
less A's on education was produced by Wayne S. Wayne and Patrick Ford
[28:51 - 28:57]
distribution is made through the National Association of educational broadcasters.
[28:57 - 29:03]
This is the NASB Radio Network.
[29:03 - 29:09]
Looming. In the morning noon and.
[29:09 - 29:16]
Night.
[29:16 - 29:22]
Morning.
[29:22 - 29:23]
Moon.
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