- Series
- Search for mental health
- Air Date
- 1968-01-03
- Duration
- 00:25:05
- Episode Description
- This program features an interview with Gertrude R. Wilson about working with mentally ill children.
- Series Description
- A series of talks about the latest advances in psychiatry by staff members of Forest Hospital near Chicago.
- Subject(s)
- Creator(s)
- University of Chicago (Producer)Squire, Morris B. (Host)
- Contributors
- Wilson, Gertrude, 1895-1982 (Interviewee)
- Genre(s)
- Geographic Region(s)
- regions
- Time Period
- 1961-1970
[00:04 - 00:09]
The Forest Hospital located in displaying the lanai presents the search
[00:09 - 00:14]
for mental health and exploration of the newest advances in psychiatry
[00:14 - 00:20]
during this series. Physicians and other professional personnel working in the area of
[00:20 - 00:24]
mental health at Forest Hospital. A hundred bed treatment facility
[00:24 - 00:30]
will discuss the latest advances in mental health care research
[00:30 - 00:35]
and education. Such topics as alcoholism
[00:35 - 00:39]
and adolescent behavior marital problems problems of the aged
[00:39 - 00:45]
suicide emotional problems and others will be presented on
[00:45 - 00:50]
the search for mental health. Your host for the series is Mr.
[00:50 - 00:54]
Morris Squire administrators of Forest Hospital.
[00:54 - 00:59]
This is Morris were a special guest for today is Mrs Gertrude R R Wilson a
[00:59 - 01:04]
graduate of the lonely University School of Social Work and member of the National
[01:04 - 01:08]
Association of Social Work and a charter member of the Academy of certified social workers
[01:08 - 01:13]
and the assistant director of the adolescent service at Forest Hospital and the mother of how many
[01:13 - 01:18]
children nine and that count. So you know
[01:18 - 01:23]
besides being a professional you have lots of
[01:23 - 01:27]
experience with raising your own family. What kind of kids come to a
[01:27 - 01:29]
psychiatric hospital.
[01:29 - 01:34]
Well they don't look much different than the kids you see in a normal
[01:34 - 01:40]
high school. The average kind of a high school in a suburb.
[01:40 - 01:45]
They differed from the adults who come to a psychiatric hospital in that
[01:45 - 01:50]
their behavior is preamps more like their peer group on the outside.
[01:50 - 01:55]
If you can't go into a psychiatric hospital. Adults tend to be more
[01:55 - 02:00]
bizarre. Perhaps more impulse ridden screaming.
[02:00 - 02:04]
Or. Crying. And the press.
[02:04 - 02:09]
Kids don't show depression by crying and looking sad. What
[02:09 - 02:13]
how do they show the depression. Keep adolescence
[02:13 - 02:18]
because the period of growth and development that in years.
[02:18 - 02:23]
Tends to man asked the true symptoms underneath. When I say an
[02:23 - 02:28]
adolescent doesn't show a depression perhaps one of the easiest things to talk about would be an
[02:28 - 02:32]
acting out depression but maybe it would be better first of all to talk about
[02:32 - 02:38]
you know what kinds of problems do kids have who do come to a psychiatric class
[02:38 - 02:42]
All right. Some of these kids are school phobic
[02:42 - 02:48]
others have learning disorders now because mean that their they don't want to go to school.
[02:48 - 02:52]
Where there is a small difference. My thoughts are with the kids. You
[02:52 - 02:57]
could say would now want to go to school. School phobic kids
[02:57 - 03:02]
want to go to school but find that they are able to do so.
[03:02 - 03:07]
And that's what's really the distinction. Maybe later on we can talk about school kids and it will
[03:07 - 03:12]
become clearer. All right kids with learning disorders come to a psychiatric
[03:12 - 03:16]
hospital. Kids who have disturbed parent child
[03:16 - 03:20]
relationships that are so severe that they actually hamper any kind of
[03:20 - 03:24]
operation. Kids with psychotic disorders also
[03:24 - 03:27]
psychiatric hospitals.
[03:27 - 03:32]
Can you differentiate for the radio audience what a psychotic episode or what a what a
[03:32 - 03:34]
psychotic What does it mean.
[03:34 - 03:40]
A psychotic youngster is. Most easily explained as being out of
[03:40 - 03:45]
contact with reality either for long periods of time or for
[03:45 - 03:50]
short episodic periods. In other words they can be out of
[03:50 - 03:54]
contact one minute and in contact another minute.
[03:54 - 03:59]
Could you describe what it means to be out of contact when a killer is
[03:59 - 04:01]
daydreaming out of contact.
[04:01 - 04:06]
In some ways you could say yes except that he has the ability to pull himself back into the
[04:06 - 04:07]
real world.
[04:07 - 04:12]
But how would a parent know when a child is out of contact as compared to daydreaming or how would a
[04:12 - 04:15]
school teacher and all of us.
[04:15 - 04:19]
The behavior would be more prevalent and the
[04:19 - 04:24]
conversation would not hang together. For example if
[04:24 - 04:29]
you asked a child like this a question from a child might if you ask How are you
[04:29 - 04:32]
today. The child might respond.
[04:32 - 04:34]
Chesterfield Cigarettes.
[04:34 - 04:39]
Tastes great. So it was a more our slogan
[04:39 - 04:42]
Islam could be a sign of the start of behavior.
[04:42 - 04:47]
Yes. What are the kinds of things that could could
[04:47 - 04:51]
somebody like a teacher or a mother be looking for you if a child is acting
[04:51 - 04:55]
peculiar in some other way dressing peculiar.
[04:55 - 05:02]
You're talking now about the psychotic Yes. Well the psychotic
[05:02 - 05:06]
youngster who.
[05:06 - 05:11]
You know you've caught me in a point where I'm trying to visualize some of these
[05:11 - 05:11]
youngsters.
[05:11 - 05:17]
They might walk around with cigarettes hanging out of their ears and nose and this is not the
[05:17 - 05:21]
playfulness that you might get with a teenager. This is a
[05:21 - 05:27]
serious kind of thing where if you try to interrupt them they become quite upset.
[05:27 - 05:32]
These are the youngsters who might calm their here into their face so that you
[05:32 - 05:34]
can tell the back of their hand from the front of their head.
[05:34 - 05:39]
Well a lot of kids comb their hair into their face on their
[05:39 - 05:44]
foreheads particularly today is that psycho psychotic behavior.
[05:44 - 05:49]
This belongs to another piece of belonging in an adolescent world it's sometimes
[05:49 - 05:50]
difficult to grow up.
[05:50 - 05:54]
So it's normal while I say this is the sort of thing though where you never see a
[05:54 - 05:57]
child's face.
[05:57 - 06:01]
Because they're deliberately hiding the double Radhika like in the letter
[06:01 - 06:06]
described as not very nice. Well tell us what kind of
[06:06 - 06:08]
other problems children do.
[06:08 - 06:13]
Well I've mentioned a whole range of them. Perhaps an acting out
[06:13 - 06:18]
depression might mean something and clue you in a little on
[06:18 - 06:21]
what some of these kids do.
[06:21 - 06:25]
I remember a girl named Terry who was in her freshman year at one of the suburban
[06:25 - 06:30]
schools a very very beautiful girl tall slim long
[06:30 - 06:35]
hair. Her father was a professional man very very
[06:35 - 06:39]
concerned with his own youth. The mother was rather typical suburban
[06:39 - 06:44]
housewife concerned primarily with with being a wife and a mother.
[06:44 - 06:49]
Carrie in her freshman year became involved in a long series
[06:49 - 06:54]
of what looked like and Truly were delinquent activities. She
[06:54 - 06:59]
stole. Even though her parents had money to buy
[06:59 - 07:03]
things. She became involved with a drinking club group of
[07:03 - 07:09]
kids and was producing the group illegally.
[07:09 - 07:13]
She began running with a group composed of both Negro and white
[07:13 - 07:18]
kids and got herself. Very very involved to a
[07:18 - 07:23]
point where she was physically in danger was running away from home
[07:23 - 07:28]
and finally culminated by stealing enough money to take a plane.
[07:28 - 07:33]
Ride to Florida and she fully. She told
[07:33 - 07:38]
parents that she didn't wanted nothing to do with them and she was going to make it on her own. Now this was
[07:38 - 07:43]
a 14 year old girl when she was brought to the hospital.
[07:43 - 07:46]
How did she come to the hospital.
[07:46 - 07:51]
The running away certainly precipitated and certainly when the parents became aware
[07:51 - 07:56]
of the extent of her involvement I mean they were they were before when I was like you know very very
[07:56 - 08:00]
often parents are not. Familiar with what is going on here.
[08:00 - 08:05]
She came to the hospital too because she threatened suicide.
[08:05 - 08:10]
Oh I see. So there was a principle uniting factor for the parents really to be a spirit
[08:10 - 08:12]
of this was really something terrible.
[08:12 - 08:17]
Yes and many children come to the hospital because of this. They either
[08:17 - 08:22]
talk suicide or attempt suicide. This is
[08:22 - 08:27]
enough to scare any parent you might recognise in your child
[08:27 - 08:33]
self-destructive kind of thing when a kid doesn't go to school. When a kid is drinking
[08:33 - 08:38]
when a kid baby is on drugs or isn't achieving in school but you can
[08:38 - 08:43]
sort of kid yourself into thinking that you know this will pass. But when a
[08:43 - 08:48]
child talks suicide it takes a. Parent off
[08:48 - 08:53]
guard and they really know that they have to get them someplace where they're safe.
[08:53 - 08:58]
So any time a child mentions this or says this to a parent I think that they should be very much
[08:58 - 09:03]
alert. Yes it's something that a red flag very very
[09:03 - 09:08]
much so that this child had referred to the hospital to a physician or
[09:08 - 09:11]
the mother and father just walking with the child.
[09:11 - 09:16]
You know the school when they became aware of the fact that she had gone to
[09:16 - 09:20]
Florida began to. Investigate and to
[09:20 - 09:25]
talk with some of her classmates and many of these things then came out in the open.
[09:25 - 09:30]
Parents were told then that their recommendation was that the child be
[09:30 - 09:36]
under psychiatric care. Parents in this instance.
[09:36 - 09:41]
Would have preferred to believe that she was a bad girl rather than a
[09:41 - 09:47]
sick girl because that would be bad in the basics.
[09:47 - 09:51]
I don't think that either you or I would say that this is just typical though for some
[09:51 - 09:56]
suburban families or so some people it's much easier sometimes to accept the fact
[09:56 - 10:03]
that your child could be bad with you than to accept the fact that they could be.
[10:03 - 10:08]
So then this child then came to us through an agency and came into the hospital. That's right.
[10:08 - 10:12]
Is this typical of children coming into your program.
[10:12 - 10:17]
Children are referred either by schools family physicians who
[10:17 - 10:22]
become aware of the difficulty from private practitioners. By
[10:22 - 10:27]
this I mean psychologists social workers. Psychiatrists
[10:27 - 10:33]
in other areas outside of the Chicago and mediate Chicago area.
[10:33 - 10:38]
Social agencies. Lawyers. Were
[10:38 - 10:43]
getting a much wider kind of range of referral as more people
[10:43 - 10:44]
become aware.
[10:44 - 10:48]
So there are people who are picking up some of these dangerous signals and owner flyers for
[10:48 - 10:52]
example are becoming much more aware.
[10:52 - 10:53]
Of. Kids.
[10:53 - 11:01]
Well apparently when you have something to do with the education of the case finders apparently outside.
[11:01 - 11:06]
I think this is very true particularly here at Forest Hospital we
[11:06 - 11:11]
have been very concerned with educating people in the immediate neighborhood and
[11:11 - 11:16]
we have held seminars for schoolteachers and counsellors we have
[11:16 - 11:20]
served as consultants to some school districts.
[11:20 - 11:25]
And tricky cases that give organized courses for people who are
[11:25 - 11:30]
handling normal children in schools as well as parents.
[11:30 - 11:32]
At this point no.
[11:32 - 11:39]
Are there any educational systems now available in Chicago or in suburbia.
[11:39 - 11:44]
Oh the Institute for analysis is running a new course
[11:44 - 11:49]
for school teachers. I say. We are doing our own
[11:49 - 11:54]
ins. Service Training School teachers.
[11:54 - 11:59]
Who. Work with the children who are on the program so you have a regular school here.
[11:59 - 12:00]
Yes.
[12:00 - 12:04]
Well could you describe the school possibly in treatment of these patients
[12:04 - 12:10]
were used to describe the school as a one room country schoolhouse and it's now
[12:10 - 12:15]
grown to be a two room country schoolhouse for the 10 kids who
[12:15 - 12:19]
are on the program. We have two school teachers now they qualified
[12:19 - 12:24]
schoolteachers most of them are qualified and are certified by the state of Illinois.
[12:24 - 12:31]
They work. In the school room but are also considered as part of our
[12:31 - 12:37]
treatment team. What do I mean by that. The teachers.
[12:37 - 12:42]
Have daily communication with the rest of the treating staff so that all of
[12:42 - 12:47]
us are familiar with what any one kid is doing at any
[12:47 - 12:51]
one point. We then can. Work
[12:51 - 12:57]
out an educational plan that best fits their child's needs.
[12:57 - 13:02]
So you have an organized therapeutic approach in the hospital such.
[13:02 - 13:07]
Could you tell us something about that. You mentioned school before.
[13:07 - 13:12]
School phobia really have to do with separation anxiety. That's another
[13:12 - 13:17]
big term to throw away. Separation anxiety means an
[13:17 - 13:22]
inability to separate without experiencing a painful feeling
[13:22 - 13:26]
which makes one want not to separate.
[13:26 - 13:31]
We talk about separating from home well most in most instances it is
[13:31 - 13:35]
a mother and child both of whom are mutually reluctant
[13:35 - 13:38]
to separate times.
[13:38 - 13:43]
So this is. And will require some intervention to allow the mother and father mother
[13:43 - 13:44]
and child to separate.
[13:44 - 13:49]
It gets very complicated truly because you have to trace the threads of the
[13:49 - 13:54]
dependent relationship that EACH OTHER Mrs Wilson I want to who could
[13:54 - 13:58]
talk a little bit more about.
[13:58 - 14:02]
The child and what happens within the hospital system who is
[14:02 - 14:07]
hospitalized phobic child or any other child you get in the hospital.
[14:07 - 14:11]
Who treats the child. Each child has a
[14:11 - 14:16]
primary therapist who is either an attending. Sic.
[14:16 - 14:21]
A psychiatrist and the attending staff or a psychiatrist. The House
[14:21 - 14:26]
staff. The adolescent has a primary therapist
[14:26 - 14:31]
who is responsible for the individual psychotherapy which is actually the nucleus
[14:31 - 14:36]
of the whole treatment plan. In addition I mentioned the two
[14:36 - 14:41]
school teachers who are and now. We have child is a rival school
[14:41 - 14:46]
program is it five days a week five days a week from 9:00 until
[14:46 - 14:51]
12:00 with a supervised study hall from one until two. So it's a half day really.
[14:51 - 14:55]
Yes the reason for this is that like any child only so much
[14:55 - 15:00]
energy is available to them. The emotionally disturbed child is
[15:00 - 15:05]
expanding energy in their illness which then makes it not available to him and
[15:05 - 15:10]
learning. Matter of fact I was thinking about this the other day and over the years
[15:10 - 15:15]
I can remember only one child. Whose illness did not affect their
[15:15 - 15:18]
schoolwork. So that.
[15:18 - 15:23]
We could not. Feel that we should expose these kids to a whole day
[15:23 - 15:25]
of school. Do they have normal school.
[15:25 - 15:30]
Oh yes the subjects are the same as you would find in any suburban school in
[15:30 - 15:34]
fact I rather suspect that the demands placed on these children
[15:34 - 15:39]
here in our particular school setting are probably more than would be
[15:39 - 15:44]
placed and some of the tracks and suburban school children accomplish more within the
[15:44 - 15:48]
home and children have a program 10 children.
[15:48 - 15:53]
And I would change your stance right. That sounds like a very heavy group of teachers just
[15:53 - 15:55]
for two of her 10 children.
[15:55 - 15:59]
Well as I said before these children have only a limited amount of energy
[15:59 - 16:04]
available to them so that special teaching techniques do have to be
[16:04 - 16:09]
used. The state of Illinois has said that the maximum number of
[16:09 - 16:13]
children can be in a classroom with a teacher is
[16:13 - 16:18]
seven. So you know we are under this because
[16:18 - 16:23]
we are concerned that these children get the maximum benefit from their education.
[16:23 - 16:29]
This educational program acceptable to.
[16:29 - 16:34]
The regular school programs road to the short end of grades for this school.
[16:34 - 16:38]
Yes we have worked out a very very nice relationship with schools
[16:38 - 16:43]
who send youngsters. That range with us with
[16:43 - 16:47]
schools where youngsters. Home.
[16:47 - 16:54]
B longs what I'm saying is that rather than have our
[16:54 - 16:58]
school accredited the home school where the youngster belongs
[16:58 - 17:03]
agrees to keep him in their roles and it credits the work that is
[17:03 - 17:09]
done here and accepts the grade which we give him. That's interesting why should they do that.
[17:09 - 17:12]
Well you know it really is in the best interest of the child.
[17:12 - 17:17]
I say the child who feels that his own home school cares enough about him
[17:17 - 17:22]
to do this kind of thing to send you newspapers and really to be
[17:22 - 17:27]
waiting for him to come back is in a much better position than the child who
[17:27 - 17:29]
feels his school has forgotten him.
[17:29 - 17:34]
Can you describe the therapy of a child who comes in the hospital by the way how long does travel remain
[17:34 - 17:35]
last for when he gets sick.
[17:35 - 17:42]
Our experience has shown that it takes. Anywhere from six
[17:42 - 17:47]
months to 18 months to affect any real change.
[17:47 - 17:52]
By this I mean an internal change not just the removal of a surface kind of
[17:52 - 17:53]
behavior.
[17:53 - 17:55]
Your pictures of disturbed children by the way.
[17:55 - 18:00]
Yes we do treat schizophrenia youngsters who truly are the most
[18:00 - 18:04]
seriously disturbed and one of the ones most difficult to
[18:04 - 18:05]
treat.
[18:05 - 18:10]
Maybe I can tell you a little bit about Jane who came to us that's a fictitious
[18:10 - 18:12]
name right.
[18:12 - 18:18]
OK. You know I wouldn't be telling anybody real names. Game was.
[18:18 - 18:23]
A little waif like child who arrived with long hair.
[18:23 - 18:25]
And a guitar in her arm.
[18:25 - 18:30]
Her writing was so disturbed that
[18:30 - 18:35]
it took a 9 by 12 sheet of paper for her to write.
[18:35 - 18:40]
A three letter word which was barely legible to anyone.
[18:40 - 18:46]
The handwriting certainly reflected the kind of confused world in which
[18:46 - 18:51]
this child lived. Knowing a little about her background might help you to see how
[18:51 - 18:56]
she got to the place where. Her father was a professional
[18:56 - 18:57]
man.
[18:57 - 19:02]
Her mother. A rigid controlling woman.
[19:02 - 19:06]
Who when Jane was growing up refused to give her coloring books
[19:06 - 19:12]
feeling that this would stifle her creativity. So Jane never really
[19:12 - 19:17]
learned to stay inside the lines. She never really even knew that there
[19:17 - 19:20]
were any lines to stay inside and a coloring book.
[19:20 - 19:22]
This teaches a child limes or.
[19:22 - 19:27]
A coloring book can teach a child. In her no control.
[19:27 - 19:32]
Well that's interesting. This girl never had this experience.
[19:32 - 19:37]
When she hit adolescence. All the internal controls that mother
[19:37 - 19:43]
he had tried to impose with words. Dissolved.
[19:43 - 19:48]
With the impact of the impulses that analysts at adolescence she just didn't know
[19:48 - 19:52]
what to do with any of them. Gradually she
[19:52 - 19:57]
came. To establish meaningful
[19:57 - 20:02]
relationships where she wanted to please someone and for the
[20:02 - 20:07]
someone she wanted to please she could give up wearing the same
[20:07 - 20:12]
dress every day. She could give up her beloved red shoes and she could
[20:12 - 20:17]
gradually begin. To really look at the world of
[20:17 - 20:22]
reality and to test how she wished to conform and how she did not wish
[20:22 - 20:27]
to conform. When mother had done strange things like saying.
[20:27 - 20:33]
You must help me come unpack the groceries. Jane would be in and I.
[20:33 - 20:38]
Would say I have to get dressed. And mother would say you must come. She would pull her out
[20:38 - 20:43]
to the car and when she got around to the car would scream. What are you doing out in the street with your
[20:43 - 20:49]
nightgown. That's nice. Well you know if you had to grow up with a.
[20:49 - 20:53]
Parent who said Do one thing and as soon as you did it they immediately
[20:53 - 20:56]
challenged you and said Where what.
[20:56 - 21:01]
Why are you doing this. It might leave you in a pretty frozen position of
[21:01 - 21:07]
feeling you better not do anything. And this literally is what happened.
[21:07 - 21:12]
How do you treat a child like this in the hospital. When I
[21:12 - 21:17]
said gradually Jane grew to have a relationship.
[21:17 - 21:22]
This is probably the key to the whole thing. Once
[21:22 - 21:27]
you catch the rabbit art catch the attention of the
[21:27 - 21:31]
adolescent. Treatment can be you know
[21:31 - 21:35]
who treats the adolescent.
[21:35 - 21:40]
Well I rather suspect that the only honest answer to that is everyone who comes into
[21:40 - 21:43]
contact with the adolescent who is everyone.
[21:43 - 21:48]
Nurses maintenance men. Teachers
[21:48 - 21:53]
doctors. Administrators. They're open.
[21:53 - 22:01]
Visitors. Their own. Peer group in the. Hospital.
[22:01 - 22:04]
The adult patient.
[22:04 - 22:09]
Who is identified within the treatment program of the adolescent program
[22:09 - 22:14]
is your friend if you like me to name names. And well guess what kinds of people.
[22:14 - 22:19]
Doctor who are with an. Analytic and analyst and a
[22:19 - 22:23]
psychiatrist is the director of the adolescent program.
[22:23 - 22:27]
Because you have other responsibilities except this. Yes he.
[22:27 - 22:32]
Also is attempting to formulate a program for
[22:32 - 22:37]
young adults which me. Be very similar to
[22:37 - 22:42]
the program which we now have been in operation for the adolescents and we really
[22:42 - 22:46]
feel that if this thing got off the ground the needs of these young people
[22:46 - 22:52]
and young adults will be much more adequately here.
[22:52 - 22:55]
Who else was there involved in the program.
[22:55 - 23:00]
Well I've already mentioned it to teachers and the other people perhaps though you'd like to
[23:00 - 23:05]
know that besides individual therapy there is group therapy for the
[23:05 - 23:09]
adolescents and we have a parent group which is a group
[23:09 - 23:12]
therapy for the parents of all of the kids.
[23:12 - 23:16]
Ask the life your thoughts on what you know a very
[23:16 - 23:21]
interesting program. And very well equipped. Is this a program that
[23:21 - 23:22]
people can afford.
[23:22 - 23:29]
Psychiatric illness is an expensive kind of thing. However with
[23:29 - 23:35]
a broader base insurance coverage treatment costs.
[23:35 - 23:40]
Can be defrayed by insurance. And many people now carry major
[23:40 - 23:44]
medical.
[23:44 - 23:48]
Is there any group that supports the adolescent program except parents and third
[23:48 - 23:50]
party peers like.
[23:50 - 23:55]
Bluecross Forest Hospital Foundation has been very generous
[23:55 - 24:02]
in financing the adolescent program very recently.
[24:02 - 24:07]
In the last year thirty five thousand dollars was given from the
[24:07 - 24:12]
forest. Hospital Foundation for the operation of this program.
[24:12 - 24:18]
Thank you very much Mrs. Wilson the assistant director of the Lawson program for thoughts on this more score.
[24:18 - 24:23]
You have just heard another in the series the search for mental health produced by
[24:23 - 24:27]
forced hospital in this Plaines Illinois in cooperation with this station.
[24:27 - 24:33]
During this series physicians and other professional personnel working in the
[24:33 - 24:38]
area of mental health at Forest Hospital a hundred bed treatment facility
[24:38 - 24:43]
will discuss the latest advances in mental health care research and
[24:43 - 24:47]
education. Other topics such as alcoholism
[24:47 - 24:53]
adolescent behavior and marital problems problems of the aged and
[24:53 - 24:57]
others will be presented on the search for mental health.
[24:57 - 25:04]
The host for this series is Mr. Morris Squire administrator of Forest Hospital.
[25:04 - 25:08]
The search for mental health is produced and directed by Jack rigamarole.
[25:08 - 25:13]
This program was distributed by national educational radio. This is the
[25:13 - 25:15]
national educational radio network.
🔍