- Series
- Georgetown forum
- Air Date
- 1969-05-30
- Duration
- 00:29:22
- Episode Description
- This program feature a discussion with Robert E. Costello, Christchild Institute for Children; Dr. William B. Klotworthy, Christchild Institute for Children; and Dr. Edmund S. Kissler, Georgetown University.
- Series Description
- Moderated by Wallace Fanning, this series presents a panel of guests discussing a variety of topics. The radio series launched in 1946. It also later aired on WTTG-TV in Washington, D.C. These programs aired 1968-69.
- Subject(s)
- Creator(s)
- Georgetown University (Producer)Fanning, Wallace (Moderator)
- Contributors
- Costello, Robert E. (Guest)Kissler, Edmund S. (Guest)
- Genre(s)
- Geographic Region(s)
- regions
- Time Period
- 1961-1970
[00:05 - 00:10]
Disturbed children or institution. The
[00:10 - 00:14]
topic of the eleven hundred and seventy six consecutive broadcast of the Georgetown
[00:14 - 00:19]
University radio forum. Another in a series of educational and informative
[00:19 - 00:24]
programs from Washington D.C. The Georgetown forum was founded in
[00:24 - 00:29]
1946. This is Wallace Manning speaking to you
[00:29 - 00:34]
by transcription from the Raymond Rice studio on the campus of Georgetown University's
[00:34 - 00:39]
historic Jesuit would seat of learning in the nation's capital. Today's discussion
[00:39 - 00:44]
will be disturbed children home or institution
[00:44 - 00:49]
participating are Mr. Robert de Castello a member of the Academy of
[00:49 - 00:56]
certified social workers and executive director of the Christ Child Institute for Children.
[00:56 - 01:01]
Dr. William P. Clotworthy clinical director of the Christ Child Institute for
[01:01 - 01:05]
Children and Dr. Edwin S. Kessler clinical professor of
[01:05 - 01:10]
psychiatry and director of children's psychiatric services Georgetown University
[01:10 - 01:15]
School of Medicine. A quiet dedication to
[01:15 - 01:20]
worthy ideals is not often the subject of headlines. And yet in
[01:20 - 01:25]
certain areas such as care for the emotionally disturbed great work is being
[01:25 - 01:30]
done ripping haps more aware of what is being accomplished for the adult who
[01:30 - 01:34]
needs psychiatric therapy. Little is known about the equally
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important work being done nationally to help emotionally disturbed children.
[01:40 - 01:45]
National studies show that three out of every 30 children in a classroom.
[01:45 - 01:50]
Are sufficiently disturbed to require some professional mental health intervention and
[01:50 - 01:54]
assistance. But these same studies indicate that the number of disturbed
[01:54 - 01:59]
children is growing so rapidly in our increasingly complex society that
[01:59 - 02:05]
unless we do something about it we may run out of professional resources.
[02:05 - 02:10]
Today the Georgetown University forum fulfills an obligation to bring to its listeners and viewers some
[02:10 - 02:15]
idea of the magnitude of the problem and what is being done at the Christ
[02:15 - 02:20]
Child Institute to bring professional help to both the children and their parents. And
[02:20 - 02:25]
finally how to harness the first strength of government and the private sector to
[02:25 - 02:30]
give assistance to a greater number of children. You know we're going to begin
[02:30 - 02:35]
this discussion by asking Dr. Castro but now is being done
[02:35 - 02:39]
to improve services for the emotionally disturbed child.
[02:39 - 02:44]
Not enough at this time. Time really. However three years ago
[02:44 - 02:49]
Congress appointed a joint commission on mental health of children to study
[02:49 - 02:53]
the mental health needs of children and youth in about one
[02:53 - 02:58]
month I report will be out and it will make recommendations
[02:58 - 03:03]
on prevention and treatment and the development of very
[03:03 - 03:07]
much needed manpower and new services
[03:07 - 03:14]
in a way. The commission as a successor to the Joint Commission on Mental health and
[03:14 - 03:19]
illness him like it. We hope that it will bring about
[03:19 - 03:23]
some far reaching changes in the organisation and the
[03:23 - 03:26]
delivery of psychiatric services for children.
[03:26 - 03:34]
Doctor when you see a what is the composition of the group. Well
[03:34 - 03:39]
it's not entirely medical. The
[03:39 - 03:44]
there is on this commission representation of
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leading medical welfare educational
[03:49 - 03:53]
and scientific organizations dealing in a
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professional way with the mental health of children with talked
[03:58 - 04:03]
about three of 30 children but we're still haven't talked
[04:03 - 04:08]
in terms of talking numbers can you give us a figure an estimate of
[04:08 - 04:13]
the magnitude of the problem beyond that. There has been a recent study
[04:13 - 04:18]
by the National Institute of Mental Health and they estimate
[04:18 - 04:22]
that of 70 million children under the age of 18
[04:22 - 04:27]
about need some kind of
[04:27 - 04:32]
therapeutic intervention and probably of the
[04:32 - 04:38]
about one million four hundred thousand are in need of psychiatric
[04:38 - 04:42]
care. Well most are certainly not getting it. Perhaps
[04:42 - 04:48]
some kind of therapy is available for about
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400000 children which means that really over two thirds of
[04:53 - 04:57]
those needing immediate care do not have it available.
[04:57 - 05:01]
Now let's get down to a sticky matter of
[05:01 - 05:09]
where does or where you determine that a child needs professional help. You should we have
[05:09 - 05:14]
said that three out of 30 children in their classroom are stuck with a
[05:14 - 05:19]
disturbed to require some professional help now. Now what do we mean. Where do
[05:19 - 05:23]
you draw the line as to where they get professional help where you think they should not.
[05:23 - 05:27]
First of all the reports from teachers
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who've been noticed gross disturbances such as
[05:32 - 05:37]
school failure disruptive behavior truancy and
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recognize obese children many of them have good capacities are not
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learning. You know as far as which children are emotionally
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disturbed there are a lot of symptoms that are associated with emotional
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disturbance. Our fear is
[05:55 - 06:01]
stealing bedwetting such things. But what is really
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important is that the development
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of a child's potential is interfered with
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that he is not progressing according to his potential or recorded his
[06:16 - 06:20]
chronological age. And when that's blocked then one knows
[06:20 - 06:25]
that more trouble is ahead. At a particular term
[06:25 - 06:31]
the stresses that the child is under and the situation
[06:31 - 06:36]
that he is in both combine to block further
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growth and to make him not able to cope very
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well with the problems that he has to deal with in this environment.
[06:46 - 06:50]
It is generally inherent problems are the environmental problems of
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what could happen to a class.
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It's really an interaction of things.
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Child is born with a certain kind of disposition certain kinds of capacities certain
[07:02 - 07:06]
kinds of temperament
[07:06 - 07:12]
and interacting with his environment may work out
[07:12 - 07:15]
well or lead to very severe problems.
[07:15 - 07:20]
So so the question then becomes one of whether it would be better to
[07:20 - 07:25]
treat such children. And allow them to continue in
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their home and school environments or whether they should be removed institutions for
[07:30 - 07:33]
her what. What solution should be made.
[07:33 - 07:38]
You know this is a very important decision to make because you can't decide it
[07:38 - 07:43]
just by the nature of the symptom or the severity. It really
[07:43 - 07:48]
has to do with work to read whether something can be offered an
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institution that can't be at home for instance a child it
[07:53 - 07:57]
may be so fixed in a pattern of behavior of suspiciousness
[07:57 - 08:02]
and hostility that no matter how hard the parents try to break
[08:02 - 08:07]
through this pattern the child feels the only way he can get the
[08:07 - 08:12]
attention and the interest that he wants is by being provocative and then the
[08:12 - 08:16]
parent is forced eventually to react with retaliation sometimes only
[08:16 - 08:21]
by his being in an institution. Can he get out of that cycle
[08:21 - 08:24]
and get the help that he needs.
[08:24 - 08:27]
Now the Christ Child institution Institute is one
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whose representatives are with us today and let's hear from them about what
[08:34 - 08:39]
happens when the child comes to such as Christ challenged to turn up.
[08:39 - 08:43]
I as the director would like to clarify a point.
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I don't have to do with how the institution
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suits this child's age in this child's life. At that point it
[08:56 - 09:01]
becomes average about two years so the child average is about
[09:01 - 09:05]
two years day where we are in a sense
[09:05 - 09:11]
there's an there's an interim Amish child's life trying to do the pharaoh's.
[09:11 - 09:13]
And correct types of problems.
[09:13 - 09:17]
Dr. Kessler has already referred to but we are
[09:17 - 09:21]
not an end in itself we are simply a means to an end
[09:21 - 09:27]
and that when a child leaves us it is better
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that that is not the end. It is really the beginning
[09:32 - 09:37]
because in general young children they have a life ahead of them and we have tried to
[09:37 - 09:42]
correct some of the problems that are barely been mentioned earlier. Mr
[09:42 - 09:47]
Costello are what age groups do you handle grace shall
[09:47 - 09:51]
we have a pre-teen travel age
[09:51 - 09:56]
for 2 about 12. This is quite
[09:56 - 10:00]
well so I might ask why as well you know but
[10:00 - 10:06]
we were I believe I will apparel believe that the
[10:06 - 10:12]
condition can be treated better but chances are that there will be a
[10:12 - 10:17]
successful doctor plan where you know how early
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in a child's life can meaningful symptoms be
[10:23 - 10:24]
detected.
[10:24 - 10:32]
Mr Costello said you have them as young as 4 a cure at your institution.
[10:32 - 10:37]
Well one can sometimes tell that something
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is wrong in the second year of
[10:41 - 10:46]
life say. And generally this wouldn't
[10:46 - 10:50]
be so but sometimes
[10:50 - 10:55]
the promise won't show up till it goes to school
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and that would be more commonly the case.
[11:00 - 11:13]
What sort of treatment do you give children a Christ child.
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I want to be there for with different cases.
[11:17 - 11:22]
Maybe you could give us an idea of the scope and treatment.
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We feel that in that place like Christ shall Institute we can offer
[11:27 - 11:32]
something beyond what can be offered and they are
[11:32 - 11:37]
patient what can be offered in the home. Most of the
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time when the children come to us the parents are
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worn out.
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He's live that show in a very difficult to live with.
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Maybe so active so on the go all the time almost
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climbing the walls. Some of them.
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That the parents come exhausted and
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I musta been there so one mediant
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thing that we can provide is some much deserved relief for them.
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We have three shifts of staff so it's not a matter of her
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parents being responsible for 24 hours
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a day.
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Nobody has but eight hours at a
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stretch.
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This makes it possible of course for the person caring
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for the child to be more patient and tolerant.
[12:52 - 12:56]
Dr. Kessler has mentioned the fact that just
[12:56 - 13:01]
coming in leaving home sometimes breaks out of these
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fixed patterns of unhealthy interaction between the
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parents and the child.
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We like to think that we
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provide what sometimes call me a new therapy which simply means
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that as best you can you attempt to make as many of the
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child's experiences while he's
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with us. Therapeutic said said whether
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he's in school with us outside of school or whatever time of day and night
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it is that the kind of
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intervention that we make that in some way it may be useful to him whether
[13:52 - 13:57]
it be simply providing as close to our
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home like atmosphere as possible or where there's warmth and.
[14:03 - 14:07]
Whether it's providing an
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atmosphere of consistency and predictability
[14:12 - 14:18]
for a child to feel for any child whether he's with us whether
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he's a normal child in the home.
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It's important that the child meet
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consistency says that he is reasonably able to predict the kind of
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reactions people around him are going to make
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sometimes. The
[14:43 - 14:48]
families are rather disorganized that the children come from and
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sometimes
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the consistency and predictability of crisis
[14:59 - 15:03]
can bring rather immediate kind of relief.
[15:03 - 15:08]
Excuse me if you have one if you haven't read your therapy.
[15:08 - 15:12]
But this is the psychotherapy.
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I think maybe some people do feel
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we provide the more obvious kind of treatments
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like psychotherapy also such that
[15:26 - 15:31]
the parents and they have
[15:31 - 15:38]
their priest who helps them understand what it is
[15:38 - 15:45]
that is troubling the child.
[15:45 - 15:50]
What for instance he might have been born with is made for difficulties what
[15:50 - 15:55]
kind of. Experiences
[15:55 - 16:00]
in this young life have made difficulties
[16:00 - 16:05]
for him that their parent is as
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he better understands the child and knows better how to handle him
[16:10 - 16:16]
and he continues to visit the child in the chow visits home.
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And so there's always
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experiences to discuss as to how best to deal with him.
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One of the things that has always impressed me so much because I
[16:33 - 16:38]
see children only in outpatient therapy in the office is
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the times when the crises occur when when the real storms happen.
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I'm not able to be of assistance very often right.
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Crush I would like to be prepared for these crises.
[16:59 - 17:02]
Can you describe the process. I mean what are you talking about.
[17:02 - 17:07]
Crisis now crisis that I
[17:07 - 17:12]
have to be something that's happened which upsets the child.
[17:12 - 17:16]
Say Frank the instant visitor that he expects
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came a kid feels frustrated and
[17:22 - 17:28]
he gets very upset he may have a temper
[17:28 - 17:33]
tantrum or you may try to get everybody mad at him or
[17:33 - 17:38]
the like and so ideally one
[17:38 - 17:43]
copes with it immediately and
[17:43 - 17:51]
whoever is in charge of him at the time takes him aside
[17:51 - 17:56]
and encourages him to verbalize whatever it
[17:56 - 18:00]
is that he's feeling. One of the most important
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things most of our children need to learn is to.
[18:03 - 18:11]
Vent their feelings in words rather than action. It's
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sad when they have acted up so that
[18:15 - 18:22]
they have made their lives and the people around them so difficult.
[18:22 - 18:26]
You mention regarding the matter of psychotherapy there's course
[18:26 - 18:32]
each child has his own psychotherapist also and
[18:32 - 18:40]
it's important for him to understand what it is that's happened to him and wanted.
[18:40 - 18:48]
What's gone wrong and what may be perpetuating the difficulty.
[18:48 - 18:52]
Childhood is not as adept with words as the adult and
[18:52 - 18:58]
so that he generally sort of dramatize is
[18:58 - 19:03]
what he has to say through our toys and
[19:03 - 19:09]
this and this is interpreted and put into words by
[19:09 - 19:12]
his therapist.
[19:12 - 19:16]
We also use drugs
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the lower third of our children are benefiting
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considerably by the use of the drugs.
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Is the probability darker that they would have to use drugs for the remainder of their life.
[19:31 - 19:36]
No indeed. In a few
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cases in some small percentage of cases they may have to use
[19:41 - 19:46]
drugs for several years. You
[19:46 - 19:51]
can pretty well count on that and a lot of cases they
[19:51 - 19:56]
won't have to use them much past the age of 12 or so.
[19:56 - 20:01]
End of story. Gusto Excuse me doctor Mr Costello or what. What
[20:01 - 20:06]
it is or any figure you can give us on cures are there such things as cures
[20:06 - 20:12]
that we've had to study was done over there called follow up studies.
[20:12 - 20:17]
I'd like to believe that one over the other in the world says 80 percent of the other will say 60 percent so I
[20:17 - 20:22]
have some tracks I guess. What happens
[20:22 - 20:28]
afterwards is complicated. Let me tell you about.
[20:28 - 20:33]
I'll call him John when John came to life who was too he was
[20:33 - 20:37]
obnoxious because he was a byword nobody could
[20:37 - 20:42]
standing me get thrown out of the Church throw him
[20:42 - 20:47]
out of a really deep religious education they couldn't stand him. His parents couldn't stand me
[20:47 - 20:52]
with Biden all the time. And it was pretty hard to take.
[20:52 - 20:57]
But in the question of time and particularly one of those educational
[20:57 - 21:01]
problems that I have as intelligence was fine but he could
[21:01 - 21:06]
not produce and the dying wish thing was he better hurry up on his medication table if he
[21:06 - 21:10]
could do everything else they could not go back and
[21:10 - 21:16]
refine a rocket out between a peach or and boom.
[21:16 - 21:20]
Parents therapist rep was wrong and he was afraid to
[21:20 - 21:25]
exceed his father in the messages that he was claiming from his
[21:25 - 21:30]
parents while I was there that which might have been mentioned and
[21:30 - 21:35]
so we dealt with us in terms of the parents and they really believe that giving him permission
[21:35 - 21:40]
to go ahead and it was shipped no problem. So I replaced him. Then
[21:40 - 21:45]
before he was discharged I'm still living with us but he was going home on weekends but
[21:45 - 21:51]
he went to school at a local elementary school and he did very well. He was
[21:51 - 21:56]
there I'd say for one semester but perhaps when I have and then
[21:56 - 22:00]
were able to discharge him back was home altogether and I remember the
[22:00 - 22:05]
principal that screwup calling the school he was going to go back to him and he wanted that pencil but it
[22:05 - 22:10]
turned out that this boy is not the same boy that left
[22:10 - 22:15]
and they were fed up but when he left. And this
[22:15 - 22:20]
is one of the things that Ron has to do with Iraq when the job of a
[22:20 - 22:25]
banker and community people remember them were and it's hard
[22:25 - 22:30]
for him to get a second chance. It's sort of like we expect you to act
[22:30 - 22:35]
different Birkbeck you to accept. And yet when I read we have different
[22:35 - 22:40]
expectations because we're not really a current of sick behavior. So
[22:40 - 22:44]
sometimes people can like this bunch of them
[22:44 - 22:50]
in a room for a child and he did fine.
[22:50 - 22:55]
However on the way back home we worked with him
[22:55 - 22:57]
for several weeks.
[22:57 - 23:02]
His mother his father himself and his sister would call it family therapy and kind
[23:02 - 23:07]
of squared away some of the barbs and the bugs in the family
[23:07 - 23:12]
and it was happen his older sister had about his coming home. And this may be coming home
[23:12 - 23:18]
much more compatible and he did well. Now not all
[23:18 - 23:23]
cases of course end up like this but this is going to happen when the good read with
[23:23 - 23:28]
some help from people like the prince but I meant preschool which may not
[23:28 - 23:31]
seem like much but it can be very critical.
[23:31 - 23:35]
Answer A brushed in passing. Upon another question that
[23:35 - 23:41]
occurred to me when the doctor thought when he was talking a seeming paradox
[23:41 - 23:46]
and that he said the Christ challenge to it in some cases is
[23:46 - 23:51]
trying to provide a home I kept my share for children who have been taken
[23:51 - 23:53]
out of their homes.
[23:53 - 23:56]
Now could you address yourself to that for a little bit less Are
[23:56 - 24:03]
there any with the pollution and we know we are every not a home they were met
[24:03 - 24:08]
in the literal sense just to give you some kind of answer let me tell you some of those that we
[24:08 - 24:12]
do we have a developing right now on
[24:12 - 24:17]
a par. It's got a couch. It's got to
[24:17 - 24:25]
chose to go where the envelope of coffee table television etc..
[24:25 - 24:30]
Now do you use this room have you up to it that not every child is up to using the room because we can have the fur
[24:30 - 24:35]
fly across the room that sort of thing so when we're ready for it. We start
[24:35 - 24:40]
introducing you that way back into a home like that with
[24:40 - 24:44]
Figure 11 children have their own homes of course as well as we can we
[24:44 - 24:49]
have them go home for weekends. But there are some instances about nine or 10 of
[24:49 - 24:54]
our children will have a total of twenty six that live there and fiber come during the day and
[24:54 - 24:59]
about 9 or 10 of the ones that live there really don't have a place to go and
[24:59 - 25:04]
immediately. We came on we
[25:04 - 25:08]
had people who were trying to develop this program further to give these troubling me
[25:08 - 25:13]
experience or provide some semblance of
[25:13 - 25:18]
about the physical aspects of a home in the institution. We tried to
[25:18 - 25:23]
provide a step by step return because if you don't give them the opportunity
[25:23 - 25:27]
it's very difficult to manage in a home
[25:27 - 25:31]
and an institution if you're careful.
[25:31 - 25:35]
Now one thing that we have to mention is that therapeutic school we want to speak
[25:35 - 25:39]
about what's involved there.
[25:39 - 25:44]
Well quickly I'll say that we have three classrooms. There are
[25:44 - 25:49]
there's a teacher and a teacher's aide in each classroom. We have a bunch of them
[25:49 - 25:54]
out in the classrooms have a maximum of 10 children but rarely do we have that many. So the
[25:54 - 25:59]
ratio of teacher to child is rather high. We have what I call a first
[25:59 - 26:03]
classroom I mentioned earlier when I talked about the way
[26:03 - 26:09]
and when the public school as we care for children who are ready for that and they're ready for
[26:09 - 26:13]
before discharge. And we are licensed
[26:13 - 26:19]
especially by the State Education Department to do this kind of work.
[26:19 - 26:24]
Did you suggest a moment ago that the total number of children that you have in any given
[26:24 - 26:28]
time is about 29 or 30 years or 30 or 32 or something
[26:28 - 26:33]
like that. You know I want to ask Dr. Kessler that you
[26:33 - 26:39]
were talking about 400000 we're talking about one institution and thirty two.
[26:39 - 26:40]
Can you correlate for me.
[26:40 - 26:45]
You know I'd like to say that not of course there is a need for many more institutions like
[26:45 - 26:50]
like this. In fact there are 15 states that don't have any of any kind. But the
[26:50 - 26:55]
importance of this institution is not just the children that are being
[26:55 - 27:00]
helped in itself. It's also very important for training of personnel
[27:00 - 27:05]
in all kinds of ways including some of my
[27:05 - 27:10]
trainees in child psychiatry that spend part of their time working
[27:10 - 27:15]
a crazed child in order to learn the techniques and understand children better where they have an
[27:15 - 27:20]
opportunity to be right in the situation where things are going on.
[27:20 - 27:24]
This is an invaluable aspect of this kind of. Place
[27:24 - 27:30]
I notice you are not Mr gusto at the mention of training personnel.
[27:30 - 27:34]
US were proud of that you have such a program.
[27:34 - 27:38]
Well Dr. Kass is referring to my biggest bets in the training of Chelsea
[27:38 - 27:44]
because back in the training of teachers social workers we are blaming the new
[27:44 - 27:49]
future due to psychologists. It keeps us on our toes will make a
[27:49 - 27:53]
contribution to the food and there's not the right learning your
[27:53 - 27:58]
craft so to speak you know on the job. In addition to the direct
[27:58 - 28:02]
training that decent people get we're very proud of that.
[28:02 - 28:07]
A discussion of disturbed children home or institution
[28:07 - 28:12]
I was thanks to Mr Robert E. cussed ELO member of the Academy of certified
[28:12 - 28:17]
social workers and executive director of the Christ Child Institute for Children.
[28:17 - 28:22]
To Dr. William B Clotworthy clinical director of the Christ Child Institute for Children
[28:22 - 28:28]
and Dr Edwin s Kessler clinical professor of psychiatry and director of
[28:28 - 28:31]
children psychiatric services Georgetown University School of Medicine.
[28:31 - 28:37]
If you have attended the weekly discussion program at the Georgetown University radio
[28:37 - 28:42]
forum broadcast of which was transcribed in the Raymond Rice studio on the
[28:42 - 28:46]
campus of historic Georgetown University in Washington D.C.
[28:46 - 28:52]
next week you will hear discussed U.S. commitments to Latin America.
[28:52 - 28:56]
A panel at that time will consist of Dr. Thomas Dogg assistant professor of Latin
[28:56 - 29:01]
American history and Dr. Norman a ballet professor and chairman department
[29:01 - 29:06]
of Latin American Studies at the University of New York at Queen's and research
[29:06 - 29:11]
associate Center for Strategic and International Studies at Georgetown University.
[29:11 - 29:17]
This program has been presented in the interest of public education by Georgetown University.
[29:17 - 29:22]
You know MODERATOR Well US banning this program was
[29:22 - 29:25]
distributed by the national educational radio network.
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