Women, science and rockets

So far in this series on the century of science you have discussed everything from the

technological to the sociological aspects of science in the 20th century

everything from nuclear physics to bio physics astronomy to undergo Knology.

But it seems to me that you've left out one very important point. This is

been the first century with women in science.

WGBH Af-Am in Boston presents a century of science

produced under a grant from the Educational Television and Radio Center in go operation

with the National Association of educational broadcasters.

This is an exploration of developments in 20th century science and of the

implications they present for contemporary American society.

Your host Voltar Torre a former editor of Popular Science and now

director of radio television programming for the Massachusetts Institute of

Technology.

This particular program we hope will call your attention to two new aspects of

science in this century. First the role of women in scientific research. And

second the role of industrial laboratories. There are more women in scientific

laboratories now than ever before and the growth of big industrial laboratories which

engage in both basic and applied research is certainly one of the most remarkable phenomena

of our times. Dr. Dorothy M. Simon as a physical chemist

who is now a technical assistant to the president of the ethical manufacturing

corporation's research and advanced development division. This is a big laboratory I

can assure you I've been up and seen it. She has worked in the Oakridge in the Argonne National

Laboratories for the National Advisory Committee for not expose.

Dr Simon is now investigating new ways of propelling verticals through the space

beyond our atmosphere. DR SIMON How did you become interested in chemistry.

Well actually I became interested in chemistry at a very early age because when other

children asked me what my father did I had to tell him he teaches chemistry.

So I had to know enough about it to tell him what it was.

Were you tempted at any time to study something else or did this just go on as a

matter of fact I didn't think I would study chemistry till I was in college and then I did and

I was interested in it and wanted to make my career.

Well have you found that this is a field that you think other women would enjoy.

Yes I think that it is particularly for women who have special

abilities in the scientific law and I think they will fund

chemistry particularly a job which gives them the opportunity to use their

creative ability very satisfied.

Well most women are more interested in medicine or biology or

social work than the sort of thing that you have specialized. We don't

come across very many women interested in combustion and thermodynamics.

Well actually there aren't as many women percentage wise in engineering as

there are in the biological sciences. I think those About 1 for every hundred

and fifty men engineers while in chemistry it's more like one in

fifty Khamis who is a woman just earlier distinguished between

engineering and science.

All this is a difficult question but I can best answer it I think by an

example in the combustion field for example. If you study

mechanisms of flame propagation you are studying the basic chemistry

and physics of flames. And this is a scientific basic

problem. Well if you are adept in the use of these flames to

a combustion chamber for a ram jet or a turbo jet this is

engineering opportunities for women to be as great as they are for a man.

There are more opportunities no than there were in the past in this field.

But still it takes an unusual.

Company to hire a large proportion of women. I think you'll find

that the government laboratories like the ATC laboratories or the

National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics will be a slightly more

lenient in the hiring of women in science than most of the industrial

laboratories.

Do you ever feel lonely in this way.

Well at times but of course I always have my husband who's a scientist divorced

lady Lady engineers married people in the profession.

I was thinking about that the other day.

Only later scientists or engineers that I have were

married to scientists either in their own field or in some other I know that's

certainly true among astronomers and astronomers convention was common

and they are both strictly on a par with each other in the technical

discussions.

But there isn't quite as much of that in engineering rockets and things like that not

so much there are two women in the combustion field that I know

and one has a mathematician husband and the

other is unmarried.

Were there many in class with you ARE THEY STILL practicing science or

engineering.

Yes actually there were six of us in chemistry at the time I

was at the University of Illinois. All of us are married and all are

working in some way or other in the field of chemistry or related

scientific field.

Well no your particular workers are understand it is investigation.

New means of propulsion.

That's right that's my new interest. Propulsion for space.

How did you become started in this.

Well for many years I've been interested in combustion which was the

process used for RAM jets and turbo jets.

Now as we look toward conquering space where there is no oxygen

we think of other methods of propulsion. So it was only natural that I

should turn my interest from the burning of gasoline and

oxygen to other methods of propulsion.

In a sense and this is just a matter of keeping up with the times.

That's right. That's another way to look at the stars.

Why is a company such as you work for interested in

means of propulsion and really aren't employed yet.

We hope to be forward looking in this

field of space and we are quite interested in such things as

missiles and satellites. So that it is only

another step to propulsion systems for say

interplanetary travel and we feel this is one of the more interesting

fields of the future.

Now we all realize I think that all of the rockets and missiles that have been sent up

so far have been based on chemical reactions that is rather traditional

forms of.

Combustion.

As I write I am going to have the possibilities of chemical

reactions been exhausted or nearly so.

No one might say they are nearly exhausted in the sense that we

cannot increase the performance more than a factor

of say 100 percent with conventional molecular

chemical reactions but we can hope to increase to specific

impulses of four hundred or four hundred and fifty seconds simply by

using what we term high energy chemical

reactions. There are however other chemical reactions

such as the recumbent nation of atoms which produce significantly

more energy than the direct oxidation reduction reactions that

we know. We use these such as the reaction between

hydrogen atoms might increase their performance by a factor of

3 or far. However there are many difficulties

in using this sort of reaction. It still is in the early laboratory

stages of determining how to control the rate of the reaction.

When I use the phrase a bit of good I think maybe needs a little explaining. And that's the specific

impulse.

Yes specific impulse is the characteristic that we use to

compare fuels or performance of rocket engines and it

means the comparison of the thrust that is the force which may be

attained per unit. Roy 8 for example purple

feel or it may be considered the length of

time that one pound of fuel will

give the engine certain thrust level so the higher the

specific impulse the greater the performance the

better the few.

What you really want then is something that burns quite fast and

puts out a pretty substantial body of gas.

That's right and produces a high thrust so that the velocity of the vehicle

may equal the high velocities required for example forus

escape from the air.

But a chemical reaction such as you've been talking about is one

that really requires two materials of an

oxygen or an Occident or something of that sort is that right.

That's the usual thing for liquid fueled rockets and for

Ramjet and turbo jet engines now we do have what are called mano

propellants in which one chemical contains

both the oxygen and the fuel solid propellant are often of this

type.

You must have some way of starting a reaction too.

Yes you must have a way of starting the reaction with a spar usually or a flame

of some other sort.

But then the burning is just homogeneous solid from

the first thing I'm sure that occurs to everybody in this connection as atomic energy we hear

so much about fusion and fission. So is there any possibility of

atheism reactions that could be used to it.

Well there certainly is. Fission is a method of producing high

energy of course for low weight to fuel your rainy I'm. In this case

one method that has often been proposed is to use a working fluid. This

is a chemical like hydrogen ammonia or helium which is

heated as a gas by the energy released from the nuclear fission

process.

Usually one considers that that nuclear fission must go through an

electrical cycle and that the electrical energy must be used for the heat. Then

this heated fluid is expanded through a muscle in just the same way that the

combustion gases were in our ordinary rockets to give the

force for propulsion. Now this is

a method which will probably be comparable to chemical reactions.

We could use fusion as you suggested. And although this is is

far in the future the possibility of using

fusion gives us a chance to build one of the better

propulsion systems.

Is this the sort of thing you're working on. What the possibilities of fission

and fusion are for example.

Yes we are looking at the possibilities of fission

fusion heating by any method the use of ionic

propulsion all possible physical principles which we can

imagine might be used for propulsion.

And we are trying to compare the futures of those for propulsion

systems about solar energy doesn't that offer possibilities when you really get out

where the sun is burning hot.

Well just in the same way that nuclear energy could be used to heat a working

fluid. So solar energy could be used to heat a working fluid

which would then be expanded through the nozzle. But in

space although there is a lot of radiant energy from the sun its concentration

is not very great. So that to have anything like the concentration

in the heated gas that one is able to produce by chemical reaction

it is necessary to use a focusing device such as a parabolic

mirror.

Now this has to be a large device and this heavy. So to

carry it with you on a propulsion rocket of some sort offers a

certain number of problems one usually compares a

chemical reaction as our present rockets or advanced chemical

reactions with methods of heating a working fluid which

we have discussed previously in terms of nuclear energy and so on. And

third with the use of ionic materials.

Now in this sort of propulsion one uses a

material from which an electron may easily be

freed this week cool on as a shim to give a charged

particle lithium sodium potassium that sort of

alkaline metal material will give up an electron very

easily. It has a low on ization potential. Then one can

vaporize this material and have a vapor made up of charged particles.

We know that electrical fields will accelerate those particles

them a gas may be expelled from the combustion chamber if you

will or the ionization chamber of this new propulsion device which is

made up of charged particles moving at very high velocities.

Now the momentum of these particles is the product of their weight and their

velocity which can be sufficiently high to give

a propulsion system with a high specific impulse. However

in the case of the propulsion system. We must

have a very high potential high electrical field both

for acceleration and for on izing the material. And at this time

such a heavy power supply is required that all we

can achieve is a low thrust for a

long period of time.

When you do something as I understand it you in effect get some

negative particles which would be electrons and some positive particles which would be the other

parts of the atom is that right that's where I learned which part which you used to throw out to

obtain a structure.

Well actually there are two ways one may use both particles already separate

them and use both and then bring them back together again in the exhaust. Or you

can use what's called a neutral plasma. This means that you use both the

positive and the negative parts simultaneously and use a

magnetic field and the principle of The New Science of Magneto

hydrodynamics as the basis of a propulsion system.

With this neutral this is going to confuse and bother a few

people. When you accelerate your positive or negative

particles in the same direction at the same rate with a right that it failed the same day by

American Pharoah no less.

And it's the same oh right

carries through.

This would require quite a bit of recognizing that it is not a

simple problem at all. But there is the possibility of

accelerating the neutral placer because it is a conducting

medium.

How do you get a high potential that

means carrying a big electrical generator or something with you.

Yes you may sit in an arc or some

material simply by boiling them or you may use them

by bombarding them with electrons. Often it has been suggested that the

ionization should take place in an hour.

An arc like an arc like well very similar to an arc

light at the laboratory. CO we are studying

what are called high intensity arcs. Now these are actually arc struck

between two carbon electrodes. One is a rod and the other is

a disk. Now a tangential stream of

water is sprayed around the rod and between the gap

in the electrodes part of the water is vaporized. And

just as an arc is struck between the two electrodes and this

vapor escapes then at high velocity through the disc

arc this is a disc with a whole lot of donuts aren't electrode

so that the result is a stream of high velocity

charged very hot gases. The

temperature is about 15000 degrees centigrade. This is much

hotter than the hottest flame that we know. And the velocity can be

varied by using a nozzle rather than just just a straight dissin sounds a

little bit like playing a hose on the fur books or something of that sort.

One's first impulse is rather that if the water from voting out the arc.

Well no water that isn't vaporized is actually drained off

so that it's only the vaporized water which becomes this very hot

plasma jet.

But plasma Just what do you mean.

The plasma is the gas which has been subjected to

the high current in the arc so that the water molecules are

broken up into all sorts of atoms and charged

particles giving you a mixture off these atoms

molecules and charged particles even free electrons with high

kinetic energy.

You're in effect going to be throwing away what sounds like a lot of

debris all the time to propel yourself is that right.

That's right. You're going to be throwing away a lot of charged particles. I'm

sorry.

Well the next question that occurs to me is how do you carry enough stuff with you.

Well in this case you don't have to carry so much if you use say a

lithium gas then because the velocities are

high the mass doesn't have to be so large because it is the

product of mass and velocity which gives the momentum

the real purpose for this is that you are

interested in means of propulsion out where there is no

atmosphere. Yes there are really two types of propulsion

systems which are required for most of the missions we talk about in

space. The first of these must give the high acceleration

required to escape from the forces the gravity of Earth or the

forces on any other heavenly body. Now at the present time

the chemical rockets are used for that purpose and one expects that nuclear

rockets and possibly fusion systems will give these high

accelerations. Now secondly one would like to travel long

distances with just a little bit of push. These are. Shall we say the

interplanetary propulsion systems and it is here that the

heating methods such as ARC heating our solar heating or even

the radiation pressure methods might be useful. Also the I

am IC method at the present looks more useful in that regime. But

there are some possibilities that the ionic method of propulsion might be

useful both for takeoff and the weather. These are in the very

distant word.

Do you think we should go on these what you refer to as missions.

Well of course everyone would like to know whether there are canals.

So one thing that it is sure we would like to do is

at least with the scientific instruments to

observe their Venus and Mars and maybe before that the moon

which is much closer I should think this would be rather hard

to explain to the other ladies in your neighborhood who I was

sure think of all of this is strictly a man's work.

Or maybe something of the small boys read about in science fiction rather than something that concerns them.

Well it may be difficult to explain to the ladies in the neighborhood but it's very easy to

explain to their 10 year olds.

Well Dr. Simon said the 10 year olds. Do about

this. One of the things we're always interested in is is how one really

goes about preparing for a career and Magneto

hydrodynamics or any other such subject.

Well I would like to see those who are interested. Starting in

mathematics and study as much mathematics and physics as they

can possibly learn in high school and even in college because it

is the physical principles which one must understand to go

ahead in the field of engineering. No it seems to me that the

greatest difference in the present rate of progress of

engineering is based on this use. New

information on principals much sooner than we have used it in the past

so it is of great importance that even in high school

the people interested in science should study physics and

mathematics and chemistry rather than the more applied

types of scientific courses. I think perhaps it was when I was

studying geometry that I knew I wanted to be a scientist

because solving problems as one learns to do with a

logic in geometry seem to me the most interesting and fascinating

subject I have ever known.

Is your work pretty largely working with numbers and

symbols.

Oh there's always a lot of mathematics in the advanced

stages of any scientific research work.

And this is fully as important as the actual gadgetry the actual

setup of the arc are such as you described.

Actually one might say in some ways it is more

important because unless you have a concept

a basic logical idea of what is to be learned from an

experiment the experiment itself may be useless.

Course I don't mean to say that if an experiment contradicts theory that theory is

always you ought to know but I mean the experiment must be planned so

that you will learn a true fact and you will not

simply learn something odd about the environment.

Another thing I think that people here a great deal about is the worries of the

scientists about where to go armaments. The security problem and

all that. Is there any thing difficult or that is discouraging

about your work. Because a large part of it will be a little less.

I don't know that I would say it is discouraging because I think it is very necessary

that the United States should be in a strong position in this field.

I have four on the atomic bomb on jet aircraft

and now on missiles as each has become important. I feel that

I am doing what I can for my country in this field.

Do you feel that scientists and engineers should be more active in

the setting. What we might call a political and social problems are not.

I think that they are required that this is now part of their duty to

take a greater interest in the major questions of the day which are

certainly influenced by science and engineering and I think it is our

duty to teach those who are to make the

decisions politically as much as we can of the background

of science so that they will understand there are no great secrets

no deep mysteries that no matter what country you are in you may

discover the same basic scientific principles which are universal.

The thing that I think bothers a good many people as is the fact that political

leaders of any country apparently gets such contradictory

advice from various scientists and engineers all of whom are people

with the most intentions. As far as we know great competence.

What is a layman going to do. He is confronted with conflicting advice

from different camps of scientists.

This is a very difficult situation and I think that scientists must

be very sure that they place the broadest picture that they

can before lame and so it is the duty of scientists not only to

understand their scientific questions but they must understand

the political ones so that we can begin to give a more

unified front to laymen. I think there is no a

lack of understanding of the significance of the

scientific answers in the political field that as

scientists become more skilled in understanding political questions and as

they realize that their role is slightly different. We will have a

more unified and uniform answer to these questions.

Perhaps a young person it was to be honest lives a good bit of

the humanities political science and economics and literature and that sort of thing as

well as mathematics and physics.

I agree that that is very much so and that all people

who are now in college studying science should take every

advantage to hear of the political scientists and the

men in the humanities who come to their colleges and universities to speak

and should realize that these problems are as difficult to

solve and require as much or more intelligence

than an raffling fusion for example.

I say well thank you very much Dr. 7 for talking to us.

You have been listening to women science and rockets with Dr. Dorothy Simon a

physical chemist expert in propellant and a technical assistant to the president of the EV Gold

Corporation at that firm's research and advanced development division. This

has been a part of century of science a recorded exploration of developments in

science and their import for the 20th century American. This series is

prepared by WGBH Af-Am in Boston for the Lowell Institute cooperative

broadcasting Council. Your host Volta Torre a former editor of

Popular Science now director of radio television programming for the Massachusetts Institute of

Technology Director for the series Lillian embassy you know producer Jack the

Summerfield Bill Cavanaugh speaking next week J.W. Forrester

builder of the world's fastest electronic memory and professor of industrial management at MIT

will discuss a new phenomenon of our age the paperwork revolution. Two

weeks from today Watson Davis director of science service sets the background leading to this

century of science. And three weeks from today the series will conclude with Walter

C. Michaels is topic education for a century of science

a century of science is produced under a grant from the Educational Television and Radio Center and

distributed by the National Association of educational broadcasters. This is the

end E.B. Radio Network.