Women, science and rockets

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So far in this series on the century of science you have discussed everything from the
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technological to the sociological aspects of science in the 20th century
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everything from nuclear physics to bio physics astronomy to undergo Knology.
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But it seems to me that you've left out one very important point. This is
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been the first century with women in science.
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WGBH Af-Am in Boston presents a century of science
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produced under a grant from the Educational Television and Radio Center in go operation
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with the National Association of educational broadcasters.
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This is an exploration of developments in 20th century science and of the
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implications they present for contemporary American society.
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Your host Voltar Torre a former editor of Popular Science and now
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director of radio television programming for the Massachusetts Institute of
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Technology.
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This particular program we hope will call your attention to two new aspects of
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science in this century. First the role of women in scientific research. And
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second the role of industrial laboratories. There are more women in scientific
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laboratories now than ever before and the growth of big industrial laboratories which
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engage in both basic and applied research is certainly one of the most remarkable phenomena
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of our times. Dr. Dorothy M. Simon as a physical chemist
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who is now a technical assistant to the president of the ethical manufacturing
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corporation's research and advanced development division. This is a big laboratory I
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can assure you I've been up and seen it. She has worked in the Oakridge in the Argonne National
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Laboratories for the National Advisory Committee for not expose.
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Dr Simon is now investigating new ways of propelling verticals through the space
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beyond our atmosphere. DR SIMON How did you become interested in chemistry.
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Well actually I became interested in chemistry at a very early age because when other
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children asked me what my father did I had to tell him he teaches chemistry.
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So I had to know enough about it to tell him what it was.
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Were you tempted at any time to study something else or did this just go on as a
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matter of fact I didn't think I would study chemistry till I was in college and then I did and
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I was interested in it and wanted to make my career.
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Well have you found that this is a field that you think other women would enjoy.
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Yes I think that it is particularly for women who have special
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abilities in the scientific law and I think they will fund
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chemistry particularly a job which gives them the opportunity to use their
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creative ability very satisfied.
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Well most women are more interested in medicine or biology or
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social work than the sort of thing that you have specialized. We don't
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come across very many women interested in combustion and thermodynamics.
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Well actually there aren't as many women percentage wise in engineering as
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there are in the biological sciences. I think those About 1 for every hundred
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and fifty men engineers while in chemistry it's more like one in
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fifty Khamis who is a woman just earlier distinguished between
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engineering and science.
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All this is a difficult question but I can best answer it I think by an
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example in the combustion field for example. If you study
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mechanisms of flame propagation you are studying the basic chemistry
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and physics of flames. And this is a scientific basic
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problem. Well if you are adept in the use of these flames to
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a combustion chamber for a ram jet or a turbo jet this is
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engineering opportunities for women to be as great as they are for a man.
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There are more opportunities no than there were in the past in this field.
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But still it takes an unusual.
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Company to hire a large proportion of women. I think you'll find
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that the government laboratories like the ATC laboratories or the
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National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics will be a slightly more
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lenient in the hiring of women in science than most of the industrial
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laboratories.
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Do you ever feel lonely in this way.
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Well at times but of course I always have my husband who's a scientist divorced
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lady Lady engineers married people in the profession.
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I was thinking about that the other day.
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Only later scientists or engineers that I have were
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married to scientists either in their own field or in some other I know that's
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certainly true among astronomers and astronomers convention was common
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and they are both strictly on a par with each other in the technical
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discussions.
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But there isn't quite as much of that in engineering rockets and things like that not
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so much there are two women in the combustion field that I know
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and one has a mathematician husband and the
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other is unmarried.
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Were there many in class with you ARE THEY STILL practicing science or
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engineering.
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Yes actually there were six of us in chemistry at the time I
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was at the University of Illinois. All of us are married and all are
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working in some way or other in the field of chemistry or related
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scientific field.
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Well no your particular workers are understand it is investigation.
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New means of propulsion.
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That's right that's my new interest. Propulsion for space.
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How did you become started in this.
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Well for many years I've been interested in combustion which was the
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process used for RAM jets and turbo jets.
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Now as we look toward conquering space where there is no oxygen
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we think of other methods of propulsion. So it was only natural that I
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should turn my interest from the burning of gasoline and
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oxygen to other methods of propulsion.
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In a sense and this is just a matter of keeping up with the times.
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That's right. That's another way to look at the stars.
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Why is a company such as you work for interested in
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means of propulsion and really aren't employed yet.
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We hope to be forward looking in this
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field of space and we are quite interested in such things as
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missiles and satellites. So that it is only
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another step to propulsion systems for say
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interplanetary travel and we feel this is one of the more interesting
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fields of the future.
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Now we all realize I think that all of the rockets and missiles that have been sent up
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so far have been based on chemical reactions that is rather traditional
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forms of.
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Combustion.
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As I write I am going to have the possibilities of chemical
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reactions been exhausted or nearly so.
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No one might say they are nearly exhausted in the sense that we
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cannot increase the performance more than a factor
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of say 100 percent with conventional molecular
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chemical reactions but we can hope to increase to specific
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impulses of four hundred or four hundred and fifty seconds simply by
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using what we term high energy chemical
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reactions. There are however other chemical reactions
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such as the recumbent nation of atoms which produce significantly
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more energy than the direct oxidation reduction reactions that
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we know. We use these such as the reaction between
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hydrogen atoms might increase their performance by a factor of
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3 or far. However there are many difficulties
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in using this sort of reaction. It still is in the early laboratory
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stages of determining how to control the rate of the reaction.
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When I use the phrase a bit of good I think maybe needs a little explaining. And that's the specific
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impulse.
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Yes specific impulse is the characteristic that we use to
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compare fuels or performance of rocket engines and it
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means the comparison of the thrust that is the force which may be
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attained per unit. Roy 8 for example purple
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feel or it may be considered the length of
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time that one pound of fuel will
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give the engine certain thrust level so the higher the
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specific impulse the greater the performance the
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better the few.
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What you really want then is something that burns quite fast and
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puts out a pretty substantial body of gas.
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That's right and produces a high thrust so that the velocity of the vehicle
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may equal the high velocities required for example forus
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escape from the air.
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But a chemical reaction such as you've been talking about is one
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that really requires two materials of an
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oxygen or an Occident or something of that sort is that right.
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That's the usual thing for liquid fueled rockets and for
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Ramjet and turbo jet engines now we do have what are called mano
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propellants in which one chemical contains
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both the oxygen and the fuel solid propellant are often of this
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type.
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You must have some way of starting a reaction too.
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Yes you must have a way of starting the reaction with a spar usually or a flame
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of some other sort.
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But then the burning is just homogeneous solid from
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the first thing I'm sure that occurs to everybody in this connection as atomic energy we hear
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so much about fusion and fission. So is there any possibility of
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atheism reactions that could be used to it.
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Well there certainly is. Fission is a method of producing high
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energy of course for low weight to fuel your rainy I'm. In this case
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one method that has often been proposed is to use a working fluid. This
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is a chemical like hydrogen ammonia or helium which is
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heated as a gas by the energy released from the nuclear fission
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process.
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Usually one considers that that nuclear fission must go through an
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electrical cycle and that the electrical energy must be used for the heat. Then
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this heated fluid is expanded through a muscle in just the same way that the
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combustion gases were in our ordinary rockets to give the
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force for propulsion. Now this is
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a method which will probably be comparable to chemical reactions.
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We could use fusion as you suggested. And although this is is
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far in the future the possibility of using
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fusion gives us a chance to build one of the better
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propulsion systems.
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Is this the sort of thing you're working on. What the possibilities of fission
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and fusion are for example.
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Yes we are looking at the possibilities of fission
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fusion heating by any method the use of ionic
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propulsion all possible physical principles which we can
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imagine might be used for propulsion.
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And we are trying to compare the futures of those for propulsion
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systems about solar energy doesn't that offer possibilities when you really get out
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where the sun is burning hot.
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Well just in the same way that nuclear energy could be used to heat a working
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fluid. So solar energy could be used to heat a working fluid
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which would then be expanded through the nozzle. But in
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space although there is a lot of radiant energy from the sun its concentration
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is not very great. So that to have anything like the concentration
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in the heated gas that one is able to produce by chemical reaction
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it is necessary to use a focusing device such as a parabolic
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mirror.
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Now this has to be a large device and this heavy. So to
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carry it with you on a propulsion rocket of some sort offers a
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certain number of problems one usually compares a
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chemical reaction as our present rockets or advanced chemical
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reactions with methods of heating a working fluid which
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we have discussed previously in terms of nuclear energy and so on. And
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third with the use of ionic materials.
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Now in this sort of propulsion one uses a
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material from which an electron may easily be
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freed this week cool on as a shim to give a charged
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particle lithium sodium potassium that sort of
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alkaline metal material will give up an electron very
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easily. It has a low on ization potential. Then one can
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vaporize this material and have a vapor made up of charged particles.
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We know that electrical fields will accelerate those particles
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them a gas may be expelled from the combustion chamber if you
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will or the ionization chamber of this new propulsion device which is
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made up of charged particles moving at very high velocities.
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Now the momentum of these particles is the product of their weight and their
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velocity which can be sufficiently high to give
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a propulsion system with a high specific impulse. However
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in the case of the propulsion system. We must
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have a very high potential high electrical field both
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for acceleration and for on izing the material. And at this time
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such a heavy power supply is required that all we
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can achieve is a low thrust for a
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long period of time.
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When you do something as I understand it you in effect get some
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negative particles which would be electrons and some positive particles which would be the other
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parts of the atom is that right that's where I learned which part which you used to throw out to
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obtain a structure.
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Well actually there are two ways one may use both particles already separate
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them and use both and then bring them back together again in the exhaust. Or you
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can use what's called a neutral plasma. This means that you use both the
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positive and the negative parts simultaneously and use a
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magnetic field and the principle of The New Science of Magneto
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hydrodynamics as the basis of a propulsion system.
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With this neutral this is going to confuse and bother a few
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people. When you accelerate your positive or negative
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particles in the same direction at the same rate with a right that it failed the same day by
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American Pharoah no less.
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And it's the same oh right
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carries through.
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This would require quite a bit of recognizing that it is not a
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simple problem at all. But there is the possibility of
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accelerating the neutral placer because it is a conducting
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medium.
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How do you get a high potential that
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means carrying a big electrical generator or something with you.
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Yes you may sit in an arc or some
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material simply by boiling them or you may use them
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by bombarding them with electrons. Often it has been suggested that the
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ionization should take place in an hour.
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An arc like an arc like well very similar to an arc
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light at the laboratory. CO we are studying
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what are called high intensity arcs. Now these are actually arc struck
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between two carbon electrodes. One is a rod and the other is
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a disk. Now a tangential stream of
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water is sprayed around the rod and between the gap
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in the electrodes part of the water is vaporized. And
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just as an arc is struck between the two electrodes and this
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vapor escapes then at high velocity through the disc
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arc this is a disc with a whole lot of donuts aren't electrode
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so that the result is a stream of high velocity
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charged very hot gases. The
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temperature is about 15000 degrees centigrade. This is much
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hotter than the hottest flame that we know. And the velocity can be
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varied by using a nozzle rather than just just a straight dissin sounds a
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little bit like playing a hose on the fur books or something of that sort.
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One's first impulse is rather that if the water from voting out the arc.
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Well no water that isn't vaporized is actually drained off
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so that it's only the vaporized water which becomes this very hot
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plasma jet.
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But plasma Just what do you mean.
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The plasma is the gas which has been subjected to
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the high current in the arc so that the water molecules are
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broken up into all sorts of atoms and charged
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particles giving you a mixture off these atoms
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molecules and charged particles even free electrons with high
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kinetic energy.
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You're in effect going to be throwing away what sounds like a lot of
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debris all the time to propel yourself is that right.
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That's right. You're going to be throwing away a lot of charged particles. I'm
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sorry.
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Well the next question that occurs to me is how do you carry enough stuff with you.
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Well in this case you don't have to carry so much if you use say a
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lithium gas then because the velocities are
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high the mass doesn't have to be so large because it is the
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product of mass and velocity which gives the momentum
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the real purpose for this is that you are
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interested in means of propulsion out where there is no
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atmosphere. Yes there are really two types of propulsion
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systems which are required for most of the missions we talk about in
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space. The first of these must give the high acceleration
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required to escape from the forces the gravity of Earth or the
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forces on any other heavenly body. Now at the present time
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the chemical rockets are used for that purpose and one expects that nuclear
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rockets and possibly fusion systems will give these high
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accelerations. Now secondly one would like to travel long
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distances with just a little bit of push. These are. Shall we say the
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interplanetary propulsion systems and it is here that the
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heating methods such as ARC heating our solar heating or even
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the radiation pressure methods might be useful. Also the I
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am IC method at the present looks more useful in that regime. But
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there are some possibilities that the ionic method of propulsion might be
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useful both for takeoff and the weather. These are in the very
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distant word.
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Do you think we should go on these what you refer to as missions.
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Well of course everyone would like to know whether there are canals.
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So one thing that it is sure we would like to do is
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at least with the scientific instruments to
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observe their Venus and Mars and maybe before that the moon
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which is much closer I should think this would be rather hard
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to explain to the other ladies in your neighborhood who I was
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sure think of all of this is strictly a man's work.
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Or maybe something of the small boys read about in science fiction rather than something that concerns them.
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Well it may be difficult to explain to the ladies in the neighborhood but it's very easy to
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explain to their 10 year olds.
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Well Dr. Simon said the 10 year olds. Do about
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this. One of the things we're always interested in is is how one really
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goes about preparing for a career and Magneto
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hydrodynamics or any other such subject.
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Well I would like to see those who are interested. Starting in
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mathematics and study as much mathematics and physics as they
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can possibly learn in high school and even in college because it
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is the physical principles which one must understand to go
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ahead in the field of engineering. No it seems to me that the
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greatest difference in the present rate of progress of
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engineering is based on this use. New
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information on principals much sooner than we have used it in the past
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so it is of great importance that even in high school
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the people interested in science should study physics and
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mathematics and chemistry rather than the more applied
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types of scientific courses. I think perhaps it was when I was
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studying geometry that I knew I wanted to be a scientist
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because solving problems as one learns to do with a
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logic in geometry seem to me the most interesting and fascinating
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subject I have ever known.
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Is your work pretty largely working with numbers and
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symbols.
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Oh there's always a lot of mathematics in the advanced
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stages of any scientific research work.
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And this is fully as important as the actual gadgetry the actual
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setup of the arc are such as you described.
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Actually one might say in some ways it is more
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important because unless you have a concept
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a basic logical idea of what is to be learned from an
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experiment the experiment itself may be useless.
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Course I don't mean to say that if an experiment contradicts theory that theory is
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always you ought to know but I mean the experiment must be planned so
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that you will learn a true fact and you will not
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simply learn something odd about the environment.
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Another thing I think that people here a great deal about is the worries of the
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scientists about where to go armaments. The security problem and
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all that. Is there any thing difficult or that is discouraging
[24:26 - 24:31]
about your work. Because a large part of it will be a little less.
[24:31 - 24:36]
I don't know that I would say it is discouraging because I think it is very necessary
[24:36 - 24:41]
that the United States should be in a strong position in this field.
[24:41 - 24:47]
I have four on the atomic bomb on jet aircraft
[24:47 - 24:52]
and now on missiles as each has become important. I feel that
[24:52 - 24:57]
I am doing what I can for my country in this field.
[24:57 - 25:01]
Do you feel that scientists and engineers should be more active in
[25:01 - 25:06]
the setting. What we might call a political and social problems are not.
[25:06 - 25:12]
I think that they are required that this is now part of their duty to
[25:12 - 25:17]
take a greater interest in the major questions of the day which are
[25:17 - 25:22]
certainly influenced by science and engineering and I think it is our
[25:22 - 25:26]
duty to teach those who are to make the
[25:26 - 25:31]
decisions politically as much as we can of the background
[25:31 - 25:36]
of science so that they will understand there are no great secrets
[25:36 - 25:41]
no deep mysteries that no matter what country you are in you may
[25:41 - 25:46]
discover the same basic scientific principles which are universal.
[25:46 - 25:50]
The thing that I think bothers a good many people as is the fact that political
[25:50 - 25:55]
leaders of any country apparently gets such contradictory
[25:55 - 26:00]
advice from various scientists and engineers all of whom are people
[26:00 - 26:05]
with the most intentions. As far as we know great competence.
[26:05 - 26:10]
What is a layman going to do. He is confronted with conflicting advice
[26:10 - 26:12]
from different camps of scientists.
[26:12 - 26:18]
This is a very difficult situation and I think that scientists must
[26:18 - 26:23]
be very sure that they place the broadest picture that they
[26:23 - 26:28]
can before lame and so it is the duty of scientists not only to
[26:28 - 26:33]
understand their scientific questions but they must understand
[26:33 - 26:37]
the political ones so that we can begin to give a more
[26:37 - 26:42]
unified front to laymen. I think there is no a
[26:42 - 26:47]
lack of understanding of the significance of the
[26:47 - 26:52]
scientific answers in the political field that as
[26:52 - 26:57]
scientists become more skilled in understanding political questions and as
[26:57 - 27:02]
they realize that their role is slightly different. We will have a
[27:02 - 27:06]
more unified and uniform answer to these questions.
[27:06 - 27:11]
Perhaps a young person it was to be honest lives a good bit of
[27:11 - 27:16]
the humanities political science and economics and literature and that sort of thing as
[27:16 - 27:18]
well as mathematics and physics.
[27:18 - 27:23]
I agree that that is very much so and that all people
[27:23 - 27:27]
who are now in college studying science should take every
[27:27 - 27:32]
advantage to hear of the political scientists and the
[27:32 - 27:37]
men in the humanities who come to their colleges and universities to speak
[27:37 - 27:42]
and should realize that these problems are as difficult to
[27:42 - 27:47]
solve and require as much or more intelligence
[27:47 - 27:50]
than an raffling fusion for example.
[27:50 - 27:53]
I say well thank you very much Dr. 7 for talking to us.
[27:53 - 28:00]
You have been listening to women science and rockets with Dr. Dorothy Simon a
[28:00 - 28:05]
physical chemist expert in propellant and a technical assistant to the president of the EV Gold
[28:05 - 28:09]
Corporation at that firm's research and advanced development division. This
[28:09 - 28:14]
has been a part of century of science a recorded exploration of developments in
[28:14 - 28:19]
science and their import for the 20th century American. This series is
[28:19 - 28:24]
prepared by WGBH Af-Am in Boston for the Lowell Institute cooperative
[28:24 - 28:28]
broadcasting Council. Your host Volta Torre a former editor of
[28:28 - 28:33]
Popular Science now director of radio television programming for the Massachusetts Institute of
[28:33 - 28:38]
Technology Director for the series Lillian embassy you know producer Jack the
[28:38 - 28:42]
Summerfield Bill Cavanaugh speaking next week J.W. Forrester
[28:42 - 28:47]
builder of the world's fastest electronic memory and professor of industrial management at MIT
[28:47 - 28:53]
will discuss a new phenomenon of our age the paperwork revolution. Two
[28:53 - 28:58]
weeks from today Watson Davis director of science service sets the background leading to this
[28:58 - 29:02]
century of science. And three weeks from today the series will conclude with Walter
[29:02 - 29:07]
C. Michaels is topic education for a century of science
[29:07 - 29:13]
a century of science is produced under a grant from the Educational Television and Radio Center and
[29:13 - 29:17]
distributed by the National Association of educational broadcasters. This is the
[29:17 - 29:19]
end E.B. Radio Network.