Roundtable, part one

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The following tape recorded program was produced in the studios of KPFA Berkeley
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California under a grant from the Educational Television and Radio Center in
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cooperation with the National Association of educational broadcasters
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in connection with the series the American woman in fact and fiction recently presented
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by the station. We offer a panel discussion recorded under informal
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circumstances in the KPFA studios. The participants in the discussion
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are Mark Schorer writer and professor of English literature at the University of
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California Ethel Albert and her apologist and recent fellow at the
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Center for Advanced Study in the behavioral sciences at Stanford University.
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Dr. Anna Mencken Berkeley psychiatrist Peter Gold a guard professor of
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political science at the University of California and former president of Reed College
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Miriam Allen the Ford writer of San Francisco and Virginia
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Maynard writer and director of the series on the American woman in fact and
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fiction as a starting point for the following conversation.
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Each participant read the chapter entitled The ordeal of the American woman which
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appears in the book America as a civilization by Max Lerner published in
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157 by Simon and Schuster. The most
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continuous American revolutionary rights learner is the American woman.
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First there was the suffrage revolution as part of the long hard fought movement for equal
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rights in which a succession of strong minded women in the face of jeers and
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humiliation broke into previously barred professions and won the right to an
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equal education with men to speak in public to vote for and hold office.
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Second there was the sexual revolution directed against the double standard of
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morality and aimed again for women and some of the same privileges of sexual
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expressiveness as the men had coming in the wake of the Equal Rights Movement.
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It was a phase at once of the revolt against Puritanism and of the dislocations
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caused by the First World War. Related to the revolution of morals was
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third the revolution of manners with women shedding their cumbersome
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garments and adopting form fitting clothes and revealing swimsuits and shorts
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taking part in sports driving cars and even piloting planes
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serving in war time as wax and waves smoking cigarettes and drinking in
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public. Fourth says Lerner there was the kitchen
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revolution with mechanized kitchens and canned and prepared
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foods giving some women greater leisure and enabling others to get industrial and
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clerical jobs. Finally there was the jobs revolution which
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transformed the American working force as it also transformed women's role in the economy.
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In one thousand twenty there were eight million women holding jobs in
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1955. There were more than 27 million comprising over 30
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percent of the labor force. During the first quarter of the present
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century says Max Lerner the American woman strove for equal rights with men
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having achieved them. She has spent the second quarter wondering about the result.
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A section from Lerner's America as a civilization. The
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chapter the ordeal of the American woman we are about to join
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the discussion now as the panelists are talking about recent book length publications
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concerned with modern woman Wiley's generation of vipers as mentioned
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Margaret Mead's male and female the Kinsey Report and the Lundberg says
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modern woman in the last seconds someone mentions a very recent work in
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titled The trouble with women. The conversation turns
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to magazines and newspapers. Regular contributors to this unprecedented
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flow of comment on the American woman from a large stack of clippings on the
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table around which the panelists are seated. The moderator selects a number of Representative
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items from recent periodicals cartoons illustrating some facet of the
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so called Woman Question articles and interviews with various
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commentators on the American scene. Some of the titles are red
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U.S. women told to forget the qualities as one. It took courage and
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research to say women are people. Goes another American
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women want to be everything reads yet another report of an interview with a
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British born journalist Alastair Cook. Does all this comment bear
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out learner's contention that the American woman is undergoing an ordeal as the moderator.
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If so what is the nature of the ordeal. The modern dilemma.
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We hear the response of psychiatrist and unlike you I don't see any of
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our old.
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But what I think you holes in our Deal of an American woman seems
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to be based on insecurity of the American woman about
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herself as if there is a confusion of the role women that
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think you mention the cartoons you mentioned they all make fun of the
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multiple functions of an American woman today as if
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she is. If he lives a number of different
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levels at the same time with the result that she doesn't know where she
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actually belong as if her sense of identity is confused. Well the
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usual arsing wife mother or sister coming home
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only to become the fool for a while then to switch back to cook and
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housekeeper and in between the sophisticated lady at a
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cocktail party. What is she really. She handles the budget. She
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is planning practically everything in the family. It seems to me
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that it is a mini general job she is managing
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things. Previous times father brought the bacon and her room
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and cook it and there didn't seem to be a very great problem
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about the role. Now all her activities do not satisfy her.
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She has to paint or learn to fly an airplane to express
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herself. Why express are injured while eating
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well. Only one thought at this point and possibly
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because she does not say mke of herself first and
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last as her family. But she sings of herself as an
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individual who does an expert job and many expect
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Jobs in and for her family.
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Her existence does not consist in being one but in
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doing something she lives in different levels of
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activity.
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There is no wonder of course that her sense of identity is confused. The point I wanted
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to bring out is the difference in being in tune.
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Doctor ordered guard and then presented his view.
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It seems to me that you have to do two kinds of booze here and that there
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is a kind of image of women and it is only I think there are many images of
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women and there are countless different roles that women play
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and I think the image that you may have of women will depend upon your close
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status.
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I suspect that the image of women which have been for example
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by the aristocracy of uniquely in the 17th 18th
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century was a quite different in the age of women than was held by the
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Russian peasant. And I suspect that's true today.
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And most of the discussions that appear in the paper. I've written by
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leisure class people people who have time on their hands and don't know what
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to do with it. Most of them are not applicable in my
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judgment to the vast majority of
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working women their wives and sweethearts
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sisters of miners and farmers and so on
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there as I see here this business of male female man and woman
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is a pretty elemental business after all it's the most elementary of all the divisions of
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labor. It nature and it does represent
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fundamentally a difference of a division of labor
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a difference of function and biological function in the world
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and it's just fantastic to assume that a division of
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labor and a differential of function so profit on the spot
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should not result in differences of temperament or point of
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view of values and so on. I
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read an article some years ago by Floyd Allport a
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psychologist in Harper's magazine in which he argued that the
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talk about differences sex differences has a lot of nonsense
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that sex differences were socially imposed never a conventional No.
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Entirely so. If you see women as they
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are you see them as just I suppose it's
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without agenda. And this business I've had de
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sexualize a vision of both the male and the female in the
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process of forgetting the elementary function of this
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division of labor. Makes me a bit impatient.
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Well now to marry and before dying I don't want to disagree.
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Yes you see me bursting. I don't want to go out on a tangent I would take you up on
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that I could talk for an hour on that point.
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As a matter of fact it has not be sexualizing anybody nearly 100
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percent of the so-called male or female characteristics outside of the
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primers sex and secondary sexual characters are the matter of
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turning up conditioning of a sociology not of biology. I think this is
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true but they arise from the house he thinks of nothing we want to remember is of the something
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much more basic than the differentiation the male and female us a differentiation
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into human beings and non-human beings we are all primarily human
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and that the least important thing about most of us is that whether where
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they all feel man or female feel oh god how.
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Oh yeah.
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It's not enough time as you say I do what I want to say Protect Your only as and far
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more I got angry here now that I think if there is a
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dilemma it is a much more universal dilemma Lemme either of the American woman or a
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woman. I think we're living in a time of profound transition where living out of
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time at present of the worst insecurity even beyond the
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and security of life in them in the dark ages. In other words a time of
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fear. It's a universal dilemma.
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Well I heartily agree with what you've said. I think that those of us who've
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done some work in anthropology are particularly impressed by the incredible
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contrasts as you move from one culture to another where as I think I mentioned to you
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earlier in Africa it is taken for granted that the woman is the appropriate one to
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do hard labor and I think it's a role the curious that. Women in my country
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are able to get the men to do the hard work and I think that's not fair because those poor chaps you know
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kept carrying all these heavy things and work such long hours and they're not laws. You
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know they go off and get drunk or stop and visit and you get down to
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some very simple things like basket weaving in one culture this is obviously a
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male occupation and another it's just as obviously a female occupation. And I
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think to follow your line you go on from there to the differences out of sight between
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people who have a skin one color or another or who speak one language or
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another. It isn't that there aren't any differences is that we have to backtrack and find out
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what the differences really are and then I think raise the question what difference it makes.
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The fact that one creature is female and one male makes a certain difference at least
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biologically and perhaps in other ways. But is it necessarily the case
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that because you are female you are better at French than at mathematics or that you ought to stay home
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and cook instead of guy out to do something I think that the differences have to be
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re-evaluated later.
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Dr. Olga Gardner referred again to the question of women and labor.
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A social tradition custom and so on and so forth. Also
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the distribution process. I just returned from the Soviet
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Union for the last time 10 million people liked what even a fuel
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shortage of men and a great deal of the
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things that we noticed in there so few women are going they probably
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would not be doing if there were not this eclipse.
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I suspect the same is true of the technological revolution that's taking place in the United
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States under which when going into industry and going into business
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so professions have a much greater rate than ever before in history.
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Then Dr. Ro the guard brought out the point that all through history women have been placed
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in a position of subservience in relation to men and said Doctor or
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the guard.
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This has been part of our culture from the beginning. As armor goes to the player
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ever since the patriarchal says no no no I am like I'm curious to know agriculture whether
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or not the president let me interview down there may not be back and this
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is changing and changing perhaps very fast. I remember
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a descendant of ours meeting in 1840 I do or not you do not know.
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You don't want to remember.
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Remember to look at how much money do you think it's a citizen D'Antonio
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meeting was 200 years ago I was asked why it was that
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teachers occupied such an inferior position in American
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society and were paid such low wages.
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Particularly elementary school teachers and her reply to this group was this.
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She says so long as teaching is open to women
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and women occupying most of the teaching profession teaching
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is going to suffer. In our culture and only
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when it becomes a prest digitus
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occupation such that men will enter. And as a matter of fact if you look
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at the structure of American education the elementary school teacher was
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usually a woman is the bottom of the heap in terms of status in
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terms of income. Next is the high school teacher and
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this is somewhat higher and the university professor
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is only in a different world.
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Well I suspect there's a sex factor that I would do undertake to
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contradict you.
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I agree with the first statement you made but not with the evidence you're offering it is a
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huge arrow to your English speaking countries namely Great Britain and our own country. But the teaching professions
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are a cause for comedy rather than respect the British schoolmaster the very male
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is not a respected figure. And that is my
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experience. Well he may be that way in some places he may be considered
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worthwhile but from what information I have been given the teaching
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professions are not on or in the academic professions are not honored as much as a lot of say
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making a lot of money or even for that matter performing in public
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at all events there is some question I think whether the entry of males into the
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elementary educational system has helped very much. If you consider the kind of second job as an
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elementary school male teacher has to take a janitor or something else that
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is nearest Margulies or even you know elementary school.
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For example there are jobs that pay most and that have the most
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part. Administrative jobs athletic
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coach jobs that you really go to to name
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and have his start and incidentally the jobs that most resemble business
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to get lost if you approach the business you need a more prestige to have a
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business man's culture.
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This X Factor and I'm overloading your body I think running a sex discrimination accounts with a
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lower position of women are not a lower position of woman for the lack of respect for the teaching
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profession.
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Well I don't believe that the phase of the subject I'd
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like to mention very briefly a book that I imagine I'm the only person
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around here who has ever read because it's very old and is
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full of faults and is now extremely outmoded but has an extremely interesting thesis
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and I you may know of Dr machen. Don sexpot
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meant to limit time in Britain and here I have not translated by Eden and cedar Paul.
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Well there there remain places which I think is extremely interesting and very
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suggestive is that there is a sort of pendulum swaying
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as social and economic and political changes come about
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and our history which at one time say with a beginning or
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agriculture and a patriarchal family man gradually becomes the dominant
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sex and there's a period of equilibrium which we may be approaching our gradually woman
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becomes the dominant sex and so on but that is not their main thesis. Their main thesis which I think is
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extremely interesting and valuable is that the characteristics
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which we ascribe to women.
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You know I talk too much they catch me you know that
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sort of thing. Those are always the characteristics attributed to the
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subordinate sex. Whereas most courage and
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adventure. Oh I started winning are the characteristics not of men or of women
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but of the dominant sex in any one period in which once I was dominant over there I thought
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of this book.
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Later Dr. Minkin returned to the present situation in the United States and made
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this point about the American woman's newfound freedom.
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Well this freedom from all and any tensions
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conflict and struggles.
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What happens if the woman is freeing herself by a new bit of
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gadgets. She has more time but I'm
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afraid that she is losing the enjoyment of feeding
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and caring for her family. The complete the relaxation IDEO meal which
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ends in your Vanna is a tragic leap at this idea because life
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is change and struggle and conflict and I feel
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that our identity as a human being man or
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woman grows out of this struggle and conflict and
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tension it grows out of it not out of me.
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Now I wonder if the panelist will agree to take on Doctor making one of the time to write looks
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as if you are so right I got your diaper and your partner in before and maybe i'm
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sure you know well I'll yield to Dr Ambedkar I replied like the guy in the street just a
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man will do what I said in the first place I think it's she already lied
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and all of the things that she so eloquently described are characteristic
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also in an American male who thinks I would look at the ads for retirement
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fish. No parasites completely lacks ation. I would like to
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suggest this amendment.
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I don't go to many movies and I don't see many television programmes and I don't read many
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of the pulp magazines so I'm not good with those. You mean us likes the paps are
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like that taunt.
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God will probably wonder and directly I get the impression that.
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Mostly young the male and the young female
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want to do is to get rid of all the struggle and all
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problems so that they can spend all of their time in the battle of the
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sexes so that the amendment I suggested
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we wish to emancipate ourselves from the problems of the family in the
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home and children from the problems of business and industry
[21:31 - 21:35]
from the problems of politics and world peace and so on so that
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we can all spend our time chasing each other until we
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catch each other and so that the struggles of
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life which have filled the lives of people through the Asians
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will be simplified and reduced to the simple elementary struggle
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now is the battle of the sects that of the trees.
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Well all I'm suggesting is that this is the pattern I get from the
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ads this is the pattern I get from the movies this is the pattern I get from television
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programs that people in the movies and neither
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they don't spin on the radio so they chase one another.
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I think things get very much for the answer to that is that one is being called our youth
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centered culture has produced the over emphasis
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perfectability on on the hand the thoughtless happiness of childhood which
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means that both boys and girls never grow up.
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I say what I have as a sort of thought of marbles.
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Some of this in addition to some of us read the discussion of American society
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continue.
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Mark Schorer addressed a question to Dr. Elders and I want a yes or a no
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is in your conception American society a matriarchy are not a
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doctor.
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Technically it's a patriarchy. I think functionally like most societies it's a matriarchy.
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Like most yes I have seen a real patriarchy functioning and the women
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run the show and the men that when they make the American momma look like an amateur.
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The wife has to serve her husband kneeling and then when company is gone she has me
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wrapped around her little manger.
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No I'm talking about Sandra. It was apparent to me whatever wherever you go
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for I think that women pay man back.
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If I was going to go. Can I ask about this because it troubles me.
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I've heard that time ago heard of French society the French women for example when
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they were struggling for the right to vote they didn't start the very hour because everybody said that about what
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you always say of the first woman she really runs the show all the same is true that is
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being said now the Swiss women because of the same issue is up there. It's been
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said of American settlers that as you say it's been said of every society.
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I wonder if there isn't a kind of rationalizing nation I
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which the ruling dominant male sex which
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exploits and on this
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treats its women doesn't somehow.
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For today I blow all this by saying Oh well yes after all she
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knew and says she I have liked this character recently
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recorded in a paper called his wives into the hairy human have their teeth
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because they violated an injunction against smoking. I dare say he was
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happy. Yes but they really rule me.
[24:43 - 24:45]
Good for you.
[24:45 - 24:49]
Well I think that I'll backtrack this far. I think that what
[24:49 - 24:54]
happens I go right back to the book the dominant sex of the major thesis of
[24:54 - 24:59]
which I can't agree with. I think that it puts a premium on cleverness
[24:59 - 25:04]
whenever you have a powerful versus the submissive group whether it's a difference in
[25:04 - 25:09]
a nation or a difference in sex. A clever woman. Runs her husband
[25:09 - 25:14]
in a patriarchal society. I'm not so clever one is really
[25:14 - 25:19]
in bad condition and I think it's very comparable to the kind of thing that
[25:19 - 25:24]
occurred in feudal society where if you had a good Lord then it was allowed
[25:24 - 25:29]
to be a serf or in slavery if you had a good model it was dandy to be a slave
[25:29 - 25:34]
but heaven help you if you had a bad one and I think that this extend I will say that it seems to me
[25:34 - 25:39]
find it strange to have a situation of greater proximity
[25:39 - 25:44]
quality without the need to rely on the goodwill of the superior and
[25:44 - 25:47]
they cover it as of the inferior for things to be run.
[25:47 - 25:51]
Just one final point on this said in America
[25:51 - 25:57]
that we should
[25:57 - 26:01]
look up to that.
[26:01 - 26:09]
That's the America that really runs things here. And yet if
[26:09 - 26:14]
you want to compliment a woman you tell her she thinks like a
[26:14 - 26:18]
man. You don't compliment a man by telling him he thinks like a woman
[26:18 - 26:21]
or that he drives like a woman.
[26:21 - 26:26]
Notwithstanding the fact that women probably have fewer accidents and
[26:26 - 26:28]
lower than that a dervish.
[26:28 - 26:33]
Nevertheless there is this dominant sex and I suspect a
[26:33 - 26:37]
great deal of stores back to this but I'm not going to say hanging around
[26:37 - 26:43]
our foot is a man halfway you runs anything either I keep coming back to that people have
[26:43 - 26:48]
problems and even men have problems and sometimes when I'm feeling like joking
[26:48 - 26:53]
as I do at this moment I want now that I've got over being an adolescent suffragette to start a
[26:53 - 26:56]
society to give men equal rights with women they need it.
[26:56 - 27:00]
I would like to carry this just a step further and say that not only is what your
[27:00 - 27:05]
Dr. AAGAARD said true but also there is a certain amount of
[27:05 - 27:09]
conscious I'm an eye at the size of knowledge is certainly not conscious
[27:09 - 27:14]
resentment on the part of a great many men especially men of the
[27:14 - 27:16]
articulate professions.
[27:16 - 27:22]
The overt privileges and superiority and homemade shit they
[27:22 - 27:26]
have lost which expresses itself by such remarks is just like a
[27:26 - 27:31]
woman there are women that never say anything directly when I never finish their
[27:31 - 27:34]
sentences etc. etc. etc..
[27:34 - 27:39]
I suspect that part of the so-called i shared precisely at this point
[27:39 - 27:44]
is no longer true.
[27:44 - 27:49]
These things no longer really apply and then go out and they don't like it and I don't know why. Underneath
[27:49 - 27:51]
it's like it extremely well.
[27:51 - 27:55]
Coming back to this country from our pearl and Europe I was pressed by the
[27:55 - 28:00]
differentness of American women and their relative and a parent on them and in the
[28:00 - 28:05]
US compared with other ladies. What do you mean by fellow. Well when a woman shakes your hand
[28:05 - 28:10]
if she's an American you know your hand's been shook. Whereas a French lady gives you her how and why it's a
[28:10 - 28:15]
much more centered on her right out of us but I think would be the primary difference
[28:15 - 28:20]
is one of strategy rather than descriptive fact I think that a
[28:20 - 28:25]
given individual variation in any country some Frenchwomen some African women run their
[28:25 - 28:30]
husbands and some get run by them and some American women run their husbands and some get run by them.
[28:30 - 28:34]
But American women lack the delicacy to conceal their dominance.
[28:34 - 28:41]
For some time later Dr Oda Guard returned to a point brought out by Dr. Minkin at the
[28:41 - 28:46]
outset of the discussion the womens feeling of insecurity which the doctor
[28:46 - 28:50]
told the guards affects the sex problem. Then he submitted the following
[28:50 - 28:52]
observations.
[28:52 - 28:57]
There are five hundred done and about four or five million more women in the United States
[28:57 - 29:02]
that Romney could answer. Its our court and politically and
[29:02 - 29:07]
maybe if youre active or take any interest in public
[29:07 - 29:12]
affairs for example you know that the approach to public affairs of a
[29:12 - 29:16]
womens organization such as the League of Women Voters is quite different from that of men
[29:16 - 29:22]
and it really is I know of no comparable male organization to the League of Women
[29:22 - 29:23]
Voters.
[29:23 - 29:28]
Where you got a rational thoughtful approach to a public
[29:28 - 29:31]
problem where you have a whole room full of
[29:31 - 29:37]
dedicated Republican women voting for a New Deal program
[29:37 - 29:43]
upon the basis of a reasonable and rational analysis that is a
[29:43 - 29:45]
frightening prospect.
[29:45 - 29:50]
Well overnight or in the heart of our our American system of having relegated
[29:50 - 29:54]
all cultural and intellectual pursuits we've been in the notice of the
[29:54 - 29:58]
businessman who is the supposed to be the american out.
[29:58 - 30:03]
Very good you know this has been the word just now and clearly said the business of America's
[30:03 - 30:07]
business and everything else is a personal thing that's totally irrational.
[30:07 - 30:11]
Apparently John's knowledge of going to the city council in Berkeley or in Oakland
[30:11 - 30:17]
and watch who attends the city council meetings and listens and
[30:17 - 30:19]
keeps up its women.
[30:19 - 30:24]
There are very few men if any leisure and they come home and tell their
[30:24 - 30:27]
husbands what's going on in their city.