========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jun 91 01:52:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: trish Subject: RE: ASK's posting >When >you state that 'white males are fighting back' because they 'can't feel >superior', I really feel like you're dismissing the internal struggle that >white males face when they try to throw off the hold patriarchal thought has >on them. 'finagle' has a point, here ... men are as much products of their socialization as women are ... retaliation against 'patriarchal hierarchies' which assumes ALL men are the same is simply a replication of traditional male behaviour towards women ... >I'm not denying that most of the 'pc-bashers' are white males, but >not all white males are pc-bashers. okay? > --Finagle ASK's initial point had merit -- thpc backlash is embedded in the struggle over power, and, therefore, in the ownership of definitions. since power has been the milieu oWestern, white, middle-to- upperclass males, they are the ones who are defending their positions as power-brokers against those who would dare to challenge their ownership ... i.e.; women, ethnic minorities, third-world immigrants, etc. trish/witchy ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< trish wilson mc master university wilsont@sscvax.cis.mcmaster.ca hamilton,ontario,canada <<<<>>>> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jun 91 13:49:49 PDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Barb Moose Subject: remove subscription unsubscribe bjm@ceti.csustan.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jun 91 16:49:14 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: FLANNAGA@OUACCVMB.BITNET I was just wondering if a posting of mine made it through yesterday. Please acknowledge, if you will, and I will re-send, if necessary. Roy Flannagan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jun 91 23:12:02 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: JODONNEL@PENNSAS.BITNET Subject: Paglia in NYTimes The Sunday, 2 June, edition of the NYTimes Book Review contains a full page of letters attacking the front-page column by Camille Paglia that ran a few weeks ago. A learned colleague points to the tone of the letters, as well as the Times's decision to print a full page of them, as a sign that the `politically correct' party is determined to live up to the image created for them by the right in what might be termed a self-fulfilling parody. He has a point. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jun 91 08:50:36 PDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Barb Moose Subject: unsubscribe unsub wmst-l bjm@ceti.csustan.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 91 09:17:00 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: ANTLER@BRANDEIS.BITNET Subject: Roy Flanagan Inquiry no message received from you ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 91 09:20:25 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: MIKE Subject: RE: Roy Flanagan Inquiry I don't understand this message ... I just subscribed to WMST-L this morning and don't know Roy Flanagan. Mike Keenan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 91 10:04:00 CDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Zenuba Subject: RE: >RE: ASK's posting > 'finagle' has a point here...men are as much products of their > socialization as are women... "Socialization" is not a neutral term, and using it this way is agent deletion. Two good questions to ask regarding this are: socialized by whom? and for whose purposes? But the main point is the patriarchial nature of the institutions of society. For example, to look at who runs the Univ of Okla. --who is president, plus the overwhelming majority of professors, administrators (deans, registrar, bursar), etc., etc., the vast majority are white males. Of course those men don't think alike--that's not the point, anyway. The point is that they are entitled to power merely because of the characteristics The backlash against women's studies goes deeper than a fear of sharing power, it is a deep-seated dislike of women themselves and of the basic core questions that women's studies asks. And its scary because of the erasure of women's contributions in the past, and by the erasure of the women themselves. And in addition, the grouping of: > i.e.; women, ethnic minorities, third-world immigrants by it's very nature excludes women in the categories of ethnic minorities and third-world immigrants. Words DO matter. Peace... Pamela Doty WA0483@uokmvsa.bitnet ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 91 11:02:41 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: FLANNAGA@OUACCVMB.BITNET Subject: the missing note (which went astray because it was sent as a "file" rather than as "mail") I am another person who is so unfortunate at the moment to be a white-AS male Protestant and all those other ugly things, so I am supposed to feel guilty for being, much less being a man. I have had my consciousness raised so many times it has been exalted, but the believer in free speech in me wants to find the "guy" who was worried about putting his arm around a "girl" innocent until he is proven guilty of being a masher, a brute, a harrasser and an all-round pig. I don't call the young women in my classes "girls," and at the moment it is not all right to call women under the age of puberty "girls," but must we censor "girlfriend" or "boyfriend" because both terms suggest that someone may be younger than she is or he is? And if even a college-age male says something like "I can't get girls to like me," is his phrasing reprehensible? I feel great embarrassment, if not disgust, for terms of the Fifties such as "the little woman," or even the affectionately-meant "my old lady" (in the Sixties hip women called what would now be their "main squeeze" "my old man" and got away with that). I am far from one and twenty, but I feel some sympathy for a twenty-year-old who goes out with a woman of his age and feels apprehensive putting his arm around the back of the movie seat for having "Chauvinist" or "Harrasser" (is that a word?) yelled at him. In the Fifties the worst blow to manhood imaginable would be for the woman to *remove* that arm around the seat, so the fear of verbal or physical rejection carries from generation to generation, but now the man must worry about being verbally abused, accused, or even prosecuted, for extending that arm, or extending the word "girl." The generations are also different. My next door neighbor, in her fifties, would talk about "going out with the girls." My wife, in her forties, really dislikes the term "girl" being applied to any woman past puberty. My daughter, fifteen, doesn't know whether to feel flattered by junior males in high school saying, as a compliment mind you, that she has "fuck me eyes" (I should add that she is not promiscuous). My daughter, four, wants very much to wear dresses and steal her sister's make-up, though her mother wears none. Society is still in flux, and one generation still reacts against the last one before it. It is good that men are more sensitive about choice of words and that they cannot use terms like "the little woman" any more, but thought police ready to jump on each word like "girl" may abuse the wrong man or woman, and send the wrong person to jail for harrassment. Roy Flannagan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 91 10:23:00 CDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: TI0LFM1@NIU.BITNET Subject: RE: Paglia/NYt's comments Received: (from UICVM for via BSMTP) Received: (from MAILER@UICVM for MAILER@NIU via NJE) (UCLA/Mail V1.410 M-RSCS6781-6781-37); Sun, 02 Jun 91 15:37:29 CDT Received: by UICVM (Mailer R2.07) id 6819; Sun, 02 Jun 91 15:38:09 CDT Date: Sun, 2 Jun 91 15:34:41 CDT Reply-To: History Sender: HISTORY+@FINHUTC.HUT.FI From: Don Mabry Subject: ENOUGH! Comments: To: history@finhutc.hut.fi To: Loomis Mayfield , Harvey Smith Enough is enough! Will those of you who want to engage in calling each other names and in launching personal attacks on one another please do so directly to each other and not to the entire list? A discussion and debate over "studies" programs could be useful. Fields such as American Studies, Asian Studies, African Studies, Black Studies, Latin American Studies, Medieval Studies, Southern Studies, and Womens Studies (and let's not quibble at this point as to where the apostrophe goes, if one is needed) and the like have existed for many years. As far as I know, these tend to be interdisciplinary approaches. It is not surprising, in my view, that one would argue that a single discipline (such as history or political science) insufficiently prepares one to understand a complex subject. Nor is it surprising that some specialists look with disdain upon the approaches or disciplines of others. Can historians gain much additional knowledge and insight by learning the literature, music, and sociology of the people they are studying? In other words, is an interdisciplinary approach valuable? Don Mabry Professor, History, Mississippi State University djm1@Ra.MsState.Edu (Internet); djm1@msstate (Bitnet) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 91 10:26:00 CDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: TI0LFM1@NIU.BITNET Subject: RE: Last message on Paglia/NYT Sorry. I inadvertently put a message from Don Mabry at the end of my own message. ******************************************** Loomis Mayfield, TI0LFM1@NIU (BITNET ADDRESS) (815) 753-2301 Social Science Research Institute Northern Illinois University DeKalb, IL 60115 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 91 18:18:00 IST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: SOUTS@HUJIVM1.BITNET Subject: Roy flanagan I just joined WMST-L and have gotten several messages about Roy Flanagan. I don't know what this is about. Cheryl Tallan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 91 10:28:00 CDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: TI0LFM1@NIU.BITNET Subject: RE: Women's studies/potatoes as it is now?" ******************************************** Loomis Mayfield, TI0LFM1@NIU (BITNET ADDRESS) (815) 753-2301 Social Science Research Institute Northern Illinois University DeKalb, IL 60115 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 91 10:30:00 CDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Zenuba Subject: re: re: ask's posting > 'finagle' has a point here...men are as much products of their > socialization... "Socialization" is not a neutral term, and using it this way is agent deletion. Two good questions to ask regarding this are: socialized by whom? and for whose purposes? But the main point is the patriarchial nature of the institutions of society. For example, to look at who runs the Univ of Okla. --who is president, the overwhelming majority of professors, administrators (deans, registrar, bursar), etc., etc., they vast majority are white males. Of course those men don't all "think alike"--that's not the point anyway. The backlash against women's studies goes deeper than a fear of sharing power, it is a deep-seated dislike of women themselves and of the basic core questions that women's studies asks. And its scary because of the erasure of women's contributions in the past, and by the erasure of women themselves. And in addition, the grouping of: > i.e.; women, ethnic minorities, third-world immigrants by it's very nature excludes women in the categories of ethnic minorities and third-world immigrants. Words DO matter. Peace... Pamela Doty WA0483@uokmvsa.bitnet ========================================================================= Date: MON, 3 JUN 91 12:31:57 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Linda Johnson Subject: RE: Roy Flanagan Inquiry I'm Linda Johnson and I don't understand this Roy Flanagan either! What gives? neither Pemberton or I am owners of this list! .s ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 91 11:09:46 CDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: cliff staples Subject: observation An observation or two. I just signed on to this list a week or so ago. I saw an "ad" for it on another list (Postmodern Culture), hadn't heard of it before, and was eager to find out what was going on. From all the traffic lately, it looks like a lot of other people have also recently signed on. I also note that a number of those who recently signed up are, like myself, male. This morning when I checked my mail I found nine postings, all from this list. Three involved funny Abbott and Costello- like (Who's on First?) postings. The other six were all in the attack-defense, men vs. women mode. Very interesting. These sorts of messages weren't here when I first logged on. When people sign on to these lists there seems to be a sort of "identity establishing" phenomenon that occurs, much the same as in face to face interaction. I would be interested to find out if most of the new folks who recently signed on are men. My guess is that the recent flurry of postings reflects this change in the gender composition of the board. It's as if the men signed on for the purpose of provoking the people who were "already here" if you will-- women mostly I would imagine-- into an argument that's really about justifying the existence of this board. My guess is also that these men would say things on this board that they might not say to their colleagues, deans, or students. I just finished working on a paper entitled "The Moral Challenge of Feminism." In it I try to acknowledge the tremendous impact that feminism is having on men (by saying to men, individually and collectively:"You're hurting us. Stop.") and make a case for why it is important for men to begin to speak honestly about the way feminism is affecting us. Feminism sends men into a moral and personal crisis because, by speaking out about male violence, it uncovers and exposes the pain that most men have experienced FROM OTHER MEN. A pain that we carry with us, but do not and cannot speak about (to do so would express vulnerability, feelings other than anger, humanity--- all things that are opposite conventional, hegemonic, notions of hetero-masculinity). Crises represent both opportunity and danger. The danger is that men confronted with the moral challenge of feminism will, out of their own pain, act defensively and in reactionary ways that increase violence against women, a violence that embodies and reproduces patriarchy. But the crisis men experience is also an opportunity. The delegitimation of patriarchy begins with an honest accounting of male experience. This accounting must recognize that only a very few men (usually white males) benefit from patriarchy. Most of the rest of us pay dearly for our so-called privileges-- even us white ones. In my experience working with men, the most revolutionary moment occurs when men are able, usually in all male support groups (but it takes a long while), to begin to talk about the problematic nature of their relationships with other men. It is at this point that the opportunity to subvert patriarchy occurs. It is at this point that we can begin to show men thatit is patriarchy, not feminism or women, against which our anger should be directed. I can understand how women/feminists will have little patience listening to men talk about "their pain." No argument. This is "men's work." What I would say is this: if men have ever given you the impression that "being a man" is nothing but a great time, don't believe it. Don't believe the lies that men continue to tell about themselves. Feminist analyses that presume all men benefit equally from patriarchy accept this lie-- probably because it is convenient. It isn't your job to write the truth about male experience. That's our job. All I would ask is that as men begin (finally) to speak about the problematic and conflicted nature of male experience that feminist analyses take this truth into account. This will in no way weaken the power of feminist critique. Indeed, it will make it that much more powerful. Feminism brings to men the bad news about patriarchy. To men I would say: don't kill the messenger. peace, Cliff Staples ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 91 14:54:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: LAURA KRAMER Subject: RE: Paglia in NYTimes n.b. the letters published were selected by editors of the New York Times Book Review. I wouldnt presume that they are representative of those received (nor that they are unrepresentative). ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 91 15:42:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: RHODA UNGER Subject: RE: observation I am one of the people who has just subscribed to the list and I am concerned that the level appears to have dropped within the week or so that I have been reading it. I would prefer that we discuss aspects of scholarship (both within journals and the popular culture) rather than engaging in still another debate about sexual politics. For example, one of the questions in which I am interested in how we define feminist scholarship. It is certainly not about sex differences, but must it be about gender? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 91 15:13:52 cdt Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "Finagle, etc. (Durflinger,Edward M)" Stating that all white males are participating in this "deep-seated dislike" of women and that we all have a "fear of sharing power" is also subject deletion--it deletes _me_, as an individual subject, and my capability to be something other than a 'white male.' Please, please, do not use a monolithic subject when describing women's oppression. That also overlooks, as Sara Hoagland points out in her book _Lesbian Ethics_, the possibility that women have been participiating in their oppression, and that men are also oppressed by the patriarchal system. Do you really beleive that men could have set up patriarchy all by themselves? Nancy Chodorow goes a long way towards dispelling this idea in the introduction to _The Reproduction of Mothering_, pointing out that patriarchy quite possible grew out of what could have been a quite equitable division of labour in gatherer/hunter societies, which became self- reinforcing and imbalanced in agricultural and industrial societies. Comments? --Finagle ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Finagle's Creed:| The IrReverend Finagle the Polymorphously Perverse Science is true,| High Epopt of Greater Pangea Don't be misled | Edward Durflinger [DURFLING@GRIN1.BITNET] by facts! | Box 4-66, Grinnell College Grinnell, Iowa 50112 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Don't just eat that hamburger--eat the HELL out of it!--J.R. "Bob" Dobbs ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 91 16:09:14 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: MIKE Subject: RE: observation Help!!! I have somehow become a "target" ... I have done nothing more than subscribe to WMST-L on the morning of June 3 ... this is the first message I have sent and I certainly don't want to be considered in any way responsible for ANY of the transmissions that have come across my screen today. It seems obvious that the "switching" system has mixed up addresses. Mike Keenan (keenan@gw.wmich.edu) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 91 15:28:16 cdt Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "Finagle, etc. (Durflinger,Edward M)" Is anyone out there interested in French feminism? I just got done doing a paper on Cixous, tracing the development of her feminism through Derrida and Nietzsche (yes, Nietszsche. :) If anyone is interested, or has papers on Cixous that they would like to swap, drop me a line... --Finagle durfling@grin1.bitnet ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 91 15:28:16 cdt Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "Finagle, etc. (Durflinger,Edward M)" Is anyone out there interested in French feminism? I just got done doing a paper on Cixous, tracing the development of her feminism through Derrida and Nietzsche (yes, Nietszsche. :) If anyone is interested, or has papers on Cixous that they would like to swap, drop me a line... --Finagle durfling@grin1.bitnet ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 91 17:53:22 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "Jaber F. Gubrium" Subject: Unsubscribe Unsubscribe jaber f. gubrium from the list ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 91 15:01:55 PDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Barb Moose Subject: unsubscribe unsubscribe bjm@ceti.csustan.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 91 18:52:00 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: BCJ@PSUVM.BITNET Subject: Calls for papers: 18th-Century Studies AMERICAN SOCIETY FOR EIGHTEENTH-CENTURY STUDIES Annual Meeting, March 25-29 Seattle, Washington SELECTED CALL FOR PAPERS Send proposals and inquiries directly to the session chairs listed here by September 1, 1991. For a complete listing, send a request to BCJ@PSUVM.BITNET or BCJ@PSUVM.PSU.EDU "'Doing What Comes Naturally': Conceptions of Sexual Relations in and 18th-Century Literature." Edna L. Steeves, Department of English, University of Rhode Island, Kingston, R.I. 02881 Seminar.) "Theory and the Age of Criticism: Psychoanalysis and 18th-Century Literature." "Working Women's Voices and Representations in 18th-Century Literature" (Women's Caucus Seminar) Irma S. Lustig, Department of English, University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, PA 19104 "Embodiment -- Medically, Philosophically, and Aesthetically Conceived." Joel Weinsheimer, Department of English, University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, MN 55455 "Rereading Aphra Behn: History, Theory and Criticism." Heidi Hutner, 201 E. 7th St. #31D, New York, NY 10002 "Gender and Enlightenment Theology." Elizabeth Hedrick, Department of English, University of Texas, Austin, TX 78712-1164 "`Orality' and `Literacy': Styles and Forms in the 18th Century." Carey McIntosh (Hofstra University), 44 Riverside Dr. (91), New York, NY 10027 "Mothering and Fathering in 18th-century France." Jeffery Merrick, Department of History, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee, P.O. Box 413, Milwaukee, WI 53201 "Perspectives in Cultural Studies." Richard Braverman, Department of English, Columbia University, New York, NY 10027 "Passion, Anxiety, and Madness in the English Novel, 1680-1750." Maximilian E. Novak, Department of English, University of California - Los Angeles, 405 Milgard Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90024 "Theorizing Patriarchy." William Ray, Reed College, Portland, OR 97202 "The Jesuit Presence in Ibero-American Culture." Gregory Ludlow, Department of Romance Languages, Academic Center T516, George Washington University, Washington, DC 20052 "The Irish Stage, 1662-1800." Christopher J. Wheatley, Department of English, The Catholic University of America, Washington, DC 20064 "Growing Up In the Fifties: Gender and the Mid-Century Novel of Development." Christine Blouch, 2180 Medford Rd. #35, Ann Arbor, MI 48104. Inquiries by E-mail: USERHHCW@UMICHUB.BITNET "Economics and Aesthetics: Representation and Commodification." Grant I. Holly, Hobart and William Smith Colleges, Geneva, NY 14456 "Let's Get Serious About Educating the Young." Charlotte M. Craig, Department of Foreign Languages, Kutztown University, Kutztown, PA 19530 "The Female Figure in 18th-Century Pornography: An Oppressive or Liberating Discourse?" Mary Trouille (Humanities Division, University of Chicago), 1215 Elmwood Ave., Evanston, IL 60202 "Libraries of the Enlightenment: Private, Public, and Commercial." Paul Benhamou, Department of Foreign Languages and Literatures, Purdue University, West Lafayette, IN 47906 "Paternity in the 18th Century: Inheritance, Authority, and Legitimacy." Catherine Cusset-Jenkins, 45 Coolidge Hill Rd., Cambridge, MA 02138; after July 31, 1991: Department of French, Yale University, New Haven, CT 06520 "Eighteenth-Century Women Critics." Tara Ghosh Wallace, Department of English, George Washington University, Washington, DC 20052 "Eighteenth Century Representations of Elizabeth I and Elizabethans." Michael Dobson, Department of English, Northwestern University, Evanston, IL 60208 "Emotional Encounters: Representations of Feeling in 18th-Century English Culture." Adela Pinch, Department of English, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1045. "De-Marginalizing the Canon: Major Texts." Kevin L. Cope, Department of English, Louisiana State University, Baton Rouge, LA 70803-5001; inquiries and abstracts by Email to ENCOPE@LSUVM.BITNET. AND Mona Scheuermann, Division of Communications, Oakton Community College, 1600 East Golf Road, Des Plaines, IL 60016 "Novelistic Technique in Cultural Formation, 1760-1820." John Bender, Department of English, Stanford, CA 94305 "Conduct, Ideology & Identity: Educational Discourse in 18th- Century Britain." Richard Barney, Department of English, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK 73019 "Interpreting Forms of Lifewriting in the 18th Century (Autobio- graphy, Autobiographical Novel, Diaries, Memoires, Letters)" Diane Fourny, Department of French, University of Kansas, Lawrence, KS 66045-2120 "Domesticity Before, During, and After the American Revolution" (SE/ASECS Seminar). Dennis Moore, Department of English, University of Texas at El Paso, El Paso, TX 79968-0526 "Sex and Political Economy in 18th-Century England and its Empire." Henry Abelove, Department of English, Wesleyan University, Middletown, CT 06457-6063 "Female Theatre: Women as Patrons, Producers, Players and Playwrights." Jean I. Marsden, Department of English U-25, University of Connecticut, Storrs, CT 06269 "Pope, Swift, and Women Writers (Part II)." Donald C. Mell, Department of English, University of Delaware, Newark, DE 19716-2537 "Pornography and Narrative in England: 1660-1800." William B. Warner, Department of English, SUNY-Buffalo, Buffalo, NY 14260 "Concepts of Virtue and Vice in the Hispanic Enlightenment." Karen Stolley, Box 217, Vassar College, Poughkeepsie, NY 12601. "Gendering Genre in Literature and the Arts." Julie C. Hayes, Department of Modern Foreign Languages, University of Richmond, Richmond, VA 23173 "The Literary Marketplace: Gender, Class, Ethnicity" (The Aphra Behn Society Seminar). Laura Mandell, Department of English, Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14852 ************************************************************************* * * * CCCC 1 88888 LL This Announcement has * * CC CC 111 88 88 LL been crossposted courtesy * * CC C 1111 88 88 LL of C18-L, the Eighteenth * * CC 11 88 88 LL Century Interdisciplinary * * CC 11 88888 ==== LL Discussion List and by * * CC 11 88 88 LL editor-"owner" Kevin * * CC C 11 88 88 LL Berland (BCJ@PSUVM). To * * CC CC 11 88 88 LL L subscribe, send message * * CCCC 111111 88888 LLLLLL to LISTSERV@PSUVM. * * * ************************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 91 22:42:00 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: ANTLER@BRANDEIS.BITNET Subject: RE: unsubscribe UNSUBSCRIBE ANTLER@BRANDEIS Z ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jun 91 21:33:35 CDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "James R. Layton" Subject: Message Dear Group Members: I have neither the time, patience, energy, nor desire to clear my screen of all the nonsense I read tonight (35 messages). I agree with another person who wrote that messages should be personal once an iquiry or state- ment is made. Could we agree to that? Perhaps I am wrong and should with- draw from participation. Jim ========================================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 91 05:24:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: DON'T PANIC HITCHIKER'S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY Subject: Re: the missing note (which went astray because it was RE: Mr Flannagan's close... the resonance of "thought police" is telling. A little reading on language and cognition as well as the processes of social construction may be of use. I am sorry to say I thought we were well beyond all this.... howza bout a little chit-chat on the radical (i.e. root) changes in methodolotry necessitated by the rad. epist. of rad fems... WHADDYA SAY GIRLS!!! Loie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 91 05:46:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: DON'T PANIC HITCHIKER'S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY Subject: Re: observation In response to Rhoda Ungar's message... That is a VERY interesting question: "... For example, one of the questions in which I am interested in how we define feminist scholarship. It is certainly not about sex differences, but must it be about gender?" I think, for example, that there are people who use gender as a category of analysis but certainly not from any of the myriad of femoinist perspectives... I also think--tho this one is a tad more slippery-- that feminist anaylsis need not be applicable only to gender issues. NOT to vitiate the importance of gender issues in any way, one of the really exciting things about some fem. analysis is that it critiques modes and methods of analysis it/them self... I tho I certianly do NOT relish many of the outcomes, I would suggest that much of post-mod (socalled) and more importantly, the adoption, adaptaion (cooption???) of the metaphors into the "social" and "natural" sciences from the "humanities" is due to fem. critiques of epistemological assumptions. The entire notion of contemporary disciplines is acrumble--it does, by the way have a "history", remeber the Trivium-- so fem studies is broader/deeper than gender...and well beyond interdisciplinary. (I once loved that term, but now it sometimes makes me think of Mary Daly's opening of Gyn/Ecology where she defines the resonance of androgeny as "Farah Fawcet and John Travolta scotch-taoed together") Was that at all clear???? Loie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 91 05:50:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: DON'T PANIC HITCHIKER'S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY Subject: Response to Finagle and the boys... Sorry, just overtired and moved from smiling to pissed about the level of discourse here. metaphorically... I'll worry about raising the consciousness of the SS and the sad processes of their social-construction once I'm out from behind the barbed wire. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 91 07:04:33 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Gail Hornstein Subject: New Research Center We are pleased to announce the creation of the Five College Women's Studies Research Center, a joint project of Amherst, Hampshire, Mount Holyoke, and Smith Colleges, and the University of Massachusetts at Amherst. The Center has five main goals: 1. To create an organized structure within which faculty with research interests in women's studies can discuss, critique, and facilitate one another's research. 2. To provide a rubric for a series of faculty seminars on topics of current importance in feminist scholarship. 3. To provide an institutional home for visiting scholars from other campuses and especially for international visitors in women's studies. 4. To serve as the organizing agent for national and international conferences that would create, support, and maintain networks of collaboration among feminist scholars. 5. To allow important archival collections on women (especially the Sophia Smith collection, but also the Mount Holyoke archives, the Stanton-Anthony papers, the Dickinson papers, etc.) to gain greater visibility and use as scholarly resources. The Center is located on the Mount Holyoke campus, and will welcome its first research associates in September. Although we cannot offer funding to associates, we can offer a comfortable office, library privileges at the five institutions, and the opportunity to be part of a community of feminist scholars. The core of the Center's program will be a weekly seminar where research associates provide ongoing critique and response to each other's work. Normally, scholars will be affiliated with the Center for one or two semesters; other arrangements are possible, as appropriate. If you are interested in applying to be one of the Center's first group of associates (for 1991-92, or some part of it), please write by June 14 to Gail Hornstein, Dept. of Psychology, Mount Holyoke College, South Hadley, MA 01075. In your letter, describe briefly your project and its women's studies focus. Indicate why it would make sense to conduct this work within the context of the Center and the time period for which you would want to be an Associate. Include as well a current vita. If you have questions, please contact any of the following: Gail Hornstein (ghornste@mhc.bitnet); (413) 538-2339 Lee Edwards, UMass (413) 545-1922 Margaret Hunt, Amherst (mrhunt@AMHERST.bitnet); (413) 542-2287 Ruth Solie, Smith (rsolie@smith.bitnet); (413) 585-3176 Joan Landes, Hampshire (jlandes@HAMPVMS.bitnet); (413) 549-4600, ext.507 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 91 08:54:13 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Farzaneh Nour Farah Fawcet and John Travolta scotch-taped together?????? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 91 09:05:42 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: MIKE Subject: Thoughts on "Iron John" I would appreciate reactions to the possible use of "Iron John" by Robert Bly in a course titled "Women in Management." The course is in the College of Business at Western Michigan University. While an elective in the Women's Studies program (undergraduate minor) it is taken, for the most part, by undergraduate business students (80% female, 10% male with the other 10% MBA's split evenly.) The book would be included on a "skimming" list of 15 books ranging from Stead, and Harragan, to "Mayflower Madam." I'm interested in both what you might think about the point of view of the book, whether appropriate for a women's studies course, and thoughts about whether the concepts/language are just too sophisticated for the clientele. This item will be on both GENDER@RPIECES. BITNET and WMST-L@UMDD.UMD.EDU; if you wish to respond directly I can be reached at: keenan@gw.wmich.edu Thanks, Mike Keenan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 91 10:38:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "A.S.K." Subject: some replies Pamela Doty says: >The backlash against women's studies goes deeper than a fear of sharing >power, it is a deep-seated dislike of women themselves and of the basic >core questions that women's studies asks. And its scary because of the >erasure of women's contributions in the past, and by the erasure of the women >themselves. I can understand a deep-seated dislike of the core questions of women's studies, but of women, themselves? That is scary. Loomis Mayfield says: >I think the entire debate over PC comes from a blind acceptance >of the right's depiction of the term. PC is used to denounce >those that are trying to speak out against racism, sexism, and >open up academic studies to perspectives beyond a study of 'great >white men.' It is the users of the PC label who are trying to >censor academic discourse. The PC buzzword allows critics >to simply dismiss arguments out of hand, without dealing with any >of the substantive issues raised. Well said. I agree. Cliff Staples writes: >Feminism sends men into a moral and >personal crisis because, by speaking out about male violence, it uncovers and >exposes the pain that most men have experienced FROM OTHER MEN. A pain that we >carry with us, but do not and cannot speak about (to do so would express >vulnerability, feelings other than anger, humanity--- all things that are >opposite conventional, hegemonic, notions of hetero-masculinity). Well, I don't buy this, but I'd be willing to listen or read. Is there a way we could get your paper, either via email or U.S. mail? I think men are scared of losing control. Yes many men do experience pain from other men, but many men inflict pain on women. ASK ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 91 11:11:10 CDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: cliff staples Subject: Re: some replies In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 4 Jun 91 10:38:00 EST from For ASK: What don't you "buy?" I never suggested that men don't do violence to women. Indeed, my whole point is to try to understand reactionary responses to feminism-- one kind of male violence, of which there are many more. But as I see it, one cannot understand male violence against women without taking into account the violence that men do to each other. My point is NOT to diminish the significance of male violence against women by recognizing that men hurt each other. I think it is important to remember that in a patriarchal society men are more important to everyone-- including other men. Yes, men are scared of losing control. But this begs the question, I think. What, exactly, are we scared of? We're scared of other, more powerful, and dangerous men. Men who are unable to project a self that is powerful and intimidating (in part by controlling women) run the risk of being victimized by other men. In order to understand the importance of "control" to men we must understand its meaning within masculinist culture. Men are "male- identified" or homosocial. Despite appearances, women aren't really the point. What most men are "concerned with," above all else, is their status within the world of men. Isn't this why men have traditionally cared far more about work than family? As the percentage of women in male work places increases, the workplace will become less important to men because it will no longer be a site within which men can prove themselves to other men. I'd be happy to send a copy of the paper to you as soon as I can. I'd prefer not to do it e-mail at this point. Send me your "real" (as opposed to "virtual" I guess?? But I suppose that distinction no longer holds.... I'm thinking of Max Headroom.... maybe I AM Max headroom!) address via private e-mail and I'll post ASAP. regards, Cliff Staples ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 91 12:49:30 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Bronwyn In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 03 Jun 91 16:38:02 EDT from Wow! Is that Nietzsche as in Fred?!? Yes, I too am interested in Cixous, though I obviously haven't gone as far with her as you. I'd love to see your paper. Who are you? I more or less stumbled onto this Women's Studies List by accident (a friendly co-worker at a university library...) Please reply. bb ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 91 11:51:56 CDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: eric crump Subject: according to whom? When I see comments such as those recently made by Pamela Doty, my reaction is a mixture of sadness and anger. I am saddened by the paranoia some people seem to suffer from and I assume they have suffered some emotional or psychological trauma which has produced that fear. At the same time, however, I am angered not at whoever was responsible for causing the pain that twisted the person's view, but with the propagation and dissemination of the view. In this case, Pamela is portraying as a truth her assertion that both the patriarchal social system and the white males she assumes are in the driver's seat hate women and want to eliminate them. I believe that assertion is almost completely without foundation as long as it is stated in the form of a blanket generalization. At this point, it is not productive for me to say, "You're wrong" and leave it at that. But I would like to learn more about Pamela's argument (from her or from others). Quite often in discussions of this sort I see people throw out epistemological- type questions, such as "But who decides? Who makes the rules? Who says?" And the implied meaning usually is, "Patriarchal white made this up, so of course it is oppressing us (meaning everybody else)." But those questions can and should be turned upon any system of thought or belief. For instance, who decided that patriarchal society is misogynist? how do we know that? What I'm suggesting is that someone provide some evidence, some examples, that support that assertion. I would be happy to respond in kind, providing the best examples I can think of support my argument, which is that patriarchy is not misogynist, and to the extent that it is oppressive (as I believe social systems almost inevitably are) it oppresses men and women, in different ways and to different degrees. Integral to my thesis is the notion that the system is not operated by one sex or the other. Pamela said, "Socialization is not a neutral term, and using it this way is agent deletion." In context, I assume she meant that someone, some sex (men) were the agents who manipulate the system according to their own desires. Finagle's response was good, I thought, when he noted (citing Chodorow and Hoagland) that women participate in the system, and therefore share some responsibility for it, and that the system was not initially imbalanced in favor of one sex or the other. I like to think of the social system as an organism, alive. And we as individuals are to the system what cells are to us. The system is a collective, it is in some ways more (and in some ways lesss) than the sum of its parts. It is not _equal_ to its parts, in other words. If all this doesn't make sense yet it is because I haven't yet held up my end of the bargain I am proposing: that we all contribute some particularity to the debate. As Kant said, generalizations without particulars are empty; particulars without generalizations are blind." (paraphrased by John Bean and John Ramage in _Form and Surprise_). I think the discussion would benefit from the effort. Eric Crump lceric@umcvmb ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 91 10:45:22 -0700 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: 71110000 Subject: Re: observation Interesting points made by Cliff Staples. I find many things within this peice that seem to ring a few bells inside of me. For us, we perhaps seek a discourse on Gender Studies. This could include our perceptions within a more legitimate environ, legitimate for our perceptions that is. I seem to be enjoying the discussions here, but would also prefer to avoid arguments of validity of Feminist Studies, Women's Studies, or even Gender Studies. Validity seem apparent, here we must forge our understandings so as to be able to better discuss them out there. No? All the best, Christopher K. Gerteis University of California at Santa Cruz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 91 14:12:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: ASK Subject: Feminist scholarship >For example, one of the questions in which I >am interested in how we define feminist scholarship. It is certainly not >about sex differences, but must it be about gender? Rhoda, I guess the answer lies in how we define "feminist," since I think we know what scholarship means. Are you asking whether one could do feminist scholarship on some topic where the words "male, " "female," "woman," "man," "feminine," and "masculine" were never used? I also wonder how almost any research with humand cannot also be about gender since we live in such a gendered world. Everything from underpants to devices to color one's hair to wristwatches seems to be gendered. ASK ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 91 14:20:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: RHODA UNGER Subject: RE: Feminist scholarship I am trying to get the definitions of feminist and gender differentiated. For example, sometimes ideology predicts more about how people will respond than does their gender identity. But if I study ideology without taking sex dif- ferences (God forbid!) or gender identity into account, am I still doing feminist research? I am asking the question because it has come up several times recently in response to some papers I am trying to publish. Rhoda Unger ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 91 14:42:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: ASK Subject: ideology and gender >But if I study ideology without taking sex dif- >ferences (God forbid!) or gender identity into account, am I still doing >feminist research? I am asking the question because it has come up several >times recently in response to some papers I am trying to publish. Rhoda Unger It's difficult to answer, Rhoda, without more information about the research. By ideology do you mean feminist ideology? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 91 11:47:23 -0700 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Dan Tsang Subject: surveillance files The Lesbian and Gay Declassified Documentation Project is interested in hearing from individuals and groups who have received or are interested in receiving their surveillance or investigatory files from federal, state or local governments under the Freedom of Information, Privacy or other similar Acts. I am a librarian at University of California, Irvine, and hope to inventory, compile and eventually index and microfilm such files. Please respond via private e-mail to: dtsang@uci.edu or dtsang@uci.bitnet Thanks much. Dan Tsang. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 91 14:59:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: trish Subject: feminist scholarship >For example, one of the questions in which I >am interested in how we define feminist scholarship. It is certainly not >about sex differences, but must it be about gender? feminist scholarship is restricted, of course, to neither sex nor gender. its origin, however, is embedded in a reaction to male-dominated, male-centered scholarship ... therefore, gender issues are of concern to feminist scholars, and (IMHO) an understanding of each others' opinions can be considered a valid basis for discussion ... trish ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< trish wilson mc master university wilsont@sscvax.cis.mcmaster.ca hamilton,ontario,canada <<<<>>>> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 91 15:00:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: RHODA UNGER Subject: RE: ideology and gender I'm not sure I mean feminist ideology which is what the problem is all about. I would argue that there are underlying connections between feminist ideology and other beliefs involving legitimacy and authority including attitudes about the societal status quo, the validity of science, etc. I am not sure whether one can question various sources of current authority without also questioning gender arrangements, but I see this as an empirical question. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 91 15:09:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: trish Subject: RE: >RE: ASK's posting >> 'finagle' has a point here...men are as much products of their >> socialization as are women... pamela argues that: >"Socialization" is not a neutral term, and using it this way is agent deletion. >Two good questions to ask regarding this are: socialized by whom? and for whose >purposes? >But the main point is the patriarchial nature of the institutions of society. i would submit that 'the patriarchal nature of the institutions of society' are those socialization processes which i mentioned in the first statement. >And in addition, the grouping of: >> i.e.; women, ethnic minorities, third-world immigrants >by it's very nature excludes women in the categories of ethnic minorities and >third-world immigrants. >Words DO matter. i would agree ... but how else can this be said? ... 'women' are conceived of as 'the other', a category unto themselv, by feminist scholars, as well ... trish ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< trish wilson mc master university wilsont@sscvax.cis.mcmaster.ca hamilton,ontario,canada <<<<>>>> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 91 12:59:53 PST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "ALAN C. ACOCK" Subject: Names of senders Different operating systems do different things to headers. The result is that some of us wonder who is sending what. It is nice to put your name and e-mail address at the bottom of your note so that those with nasty operating systems don't miss who is sending the message. Alan C. Acock ACOCK@ORSTVM Oregon State University ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 91 19:31:01 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Claire Pedretti Subject: Re: Roy Flanagan Inquiry In-Reply-To: <9106031320.AA05270@mace.cc.purdue.edu>; from "*" at Jun 3, 91 9:17 am I am puzzled. I only sent a message to subscribe. And I am geting postings, so that one must have gotten through. Do you require a minimum number of postings of your members? > >no message received from you > I prefer to listen a bit before posting. Claire Pedretti vva@mace.cc.purdue.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 91 19:54:55 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Claire Pedretti Subject: Re: observation In-Reply-To: <9106031705.AA23111@mace.cc.purdue.edu>; from "cliff staples" at Jun 3, 91 11:09 am >interaction. I would be interested to find out if most of the new folks >who recently signed on are men. My guess is that the recent flurry of This new folk is female (name would be without 'e' for male. > >I just finished working on a paper entitled "The Moral Challenge of Feminism." >In it I try to acknowledge the tremendous impact that feminism is having on men >(by saying to men, individually and collectively:"You're hurting us. Stop.") >and make a case for why it is important for men to begin to speak honestly >about the way feminism is affecting us. Feminism sends men into a moral and >personal crisis because, by speaking out about male violence, it uncovers and >exposes the pain that most men have experienced FROM OTHER MEN. A pain that we >carry with us, but do not and cannot speak about (to do so would express >vulnerability, feelings other than anger, humanity--- all things that are >opposite conventional, hegemonic, notions of hetero-masculinity). I appreciated and agree with your observations. I used to hear with scepticism that men are role bound too. The scepticism was not for the fact, but because it was spoken by one who was benefitted by the position. But you answered that convincingly. Claire Pedretti vva@mace.cc.purdue.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 91 22:32:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: THOMAS BRIDGES Subject: Feminist Scholarship/Gender Issues I would like to hear more on the nature of feminist scholarship that does not focus on gender issues. What would be the standpoint of such scholarship that would qualify it as feminist? Wouldn't it be feminist in the same sense that the free-floating critical theory of "cultural" Marxists like Jameson (theory that has lost any connection to or basis in the perspectives of the working class) is Marxist? And in what sense could such free-floating (i.e., not tied to gender issues) feminist scholarship be responsible for the postmodernist critique epistemological assumptions (usually identified with writers like Foucault and Rorty), as Loie suggested? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 91 18:45:10 -0900 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: JANIS _ LULL unsub wmst-1 ffjl@alaska.bitnet ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jun 91 23:59:00 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: BERLAND@VAX2.CONCORDIA.CA Subject: Re: feminist scholarship unsubscribe Jody Berland ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jun 91 07:35:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: DON'T PANIC HITCHIKER'S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY Subject: Re: Feminist Scholarship/Gender Issues This IS a terrific question...I am off to school...but wanted to note to Thomas that that this is one well worth conundrum cuddling. I feel I need quite a contextual descritption to try and sort out my thoughts on this and WILL resapond soon!!! I do not mean AT ALL to be coy and SOOO self-reflexive that acrobatics are necessary to even enter the "con-text" but will just suggest that Foucault's discourse can also be approached through his own methodology. (And actually if I were to "argue" (((ugh!))) other fruits and roots I'd probably go to the US thinker still far from appropriately appreciated Kenneth Burke. On another note, I too am new to this bulletin board. It is disconcernting that they are so many unsubscibes....I almost was/am one due to the appearance, at least, that we were assigned the role of giving the boys a course in intro. to fem. studies. However, feeling a tad more compasionate and nurturing today, I would suggest that the discussion having to do with partriarchy and don't dump on the poor white males contiune but on a "sub" stream, if that is techonogically possible. We do it on the cognitive science board all the time when discussion gets hot over a particular issue but the issues is not of interest to many on the bulletin board. Whaddya think???? Loie LBRYNES@VAX.CLARKU.EDU Lois Brynes Clark UNiversity and The New England Science Center Worcester, Massachusetts ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jun 91 10:07:00 CDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "Cecilia Manrique, Academic Computing, UWLaCrosse, (608)785-8773" Subject: HELP ON AFRICA I will be teaching a course in African Government and Politics in the fall semester. Would anyone have any suggestions as to what materials to use that will make it interesting for a 300-level course for political science students? I would also be interested in having them correspond with students from African institutions or African students who are here in the United States. Any interest out there? THANKS for your help and please send to me directly so that I do not clutter the discussion. CECILIA MANRIQUE@UWLAX ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jun 91 10:37:26 CST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Kris Subject: Re: HELP ON AFRICA In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 5 Jun 91 10:07:00 CDT from On Wed, 5 Jun 91 10:07:00 CDT Cecilia Manrique, Academic Computing, UWLaCrosse, > I will be teaching a course in African Government and Politics in >the fall semester. Would anyone have any suggestions as to what materials >to use that will make it interesting for a 300-level course for political >science students? > I would also be interested in having them correspond with students >from African institutions or African students who are here in the United >States. Any interest out there? > THANKS for your help and please send to me directly so that I do >not clutter the discussion. > CECILIA MANRIQUE@UWLAX Hello Cecilia, This is Kris Niedringhaus and I am a political science/economics double major at Washington University in St. Louis. Professor Victor LeVine here teaches a wonderful African Politics class which I have taken. The whole point of this rambling message is that if I can dig up a copy of his syllabus I would be more than happy to send you a copy. His course deals with colonization, African political literature, as well as the current state of affairs in the various countries. Let me know if this would be of any help to you. Kris Niedringhaus ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jun 91 15:13:11 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Bronwyn Subject: Re: according to whom? In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 4 Jun 91 11:51:56 CDT from I find it rather difficult to reply to this message (re:unreality of women's oppression and demand for proof of such) because I feel it invalidates my experience to the point that speech becomes difficult. In other words, the author of that message is speaking in terms that nearly silence me. First, his avowal that the people to whom he responds "must be suffering from emotional and psychological trauma". Has it occured to the author that these traumas, which he so effectively and quickly dismisses, might be cases in point of the oppression he disavows? He continues that he is not so much angry at those who inflict this "trauma" as at those who disseminate "paranoia" through- out the general population. What he calls "paranoia" I suppose I would call the ability to see patterns of oppression, to put individual "traumas" into a social context. Finally, he demands proof that this society is misogynist, after having trivialized any evidence I might have used to prove this point to him. For example, I suppose if I said that I had been (for instance) raped, battered by a spouse, molested, etc., all these would have fallen under the category of personal trauma, and my subsequent perceptions of my oppression by men "paranoia". And it doesn't seem to matter how common any of these "traumas" are in this culture. They still do not constitute "proof". As far as men's position as oppressors, and whether that is "true" or not (and on the subject of men's victimization by their socialization and patriarchy)-- I wonder why it hasn't occurred to anyone that one can be both oppressed and oppressor at the same time. As a Southern white woman, I know that one certainl can. I would say that men both benefit by and are hurt by their position, as do women--BUT this does not mean that their positions are the "same" or equal. The benefits women gain from their patriarchal role are mainly gained through their relationship to or influence over men. Also, I believe we all exist at both an individual and a cultural level--so that a male friend that I relate to perhaps WOULD never oppress me (since as an individual he would not want to) but always COULD (as a member of a group in society with power over me.) I sense a strong desire in many of these messages to deny men's position as oppressor. Again, as a white woman I understand that desire, because my own struggle with racism and the benefits it brings me has been both painful and discomforting. However, just as I hope that my black friends will allow me neither to cop out of admitting to my "oppressor" side nor to see myself as nothing more than a "bad guy", I hope that feminist women will not fall into the easy traditional role of comforter and supporter and thus allow men to cop out of their own difficult struggle. We owe them solidarity in struggle, not help in finding the easy way out. bb ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jun 91 15:05:59 cdt Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "Finagle, etc. (Durflinger,Edward M)" Subject: Re: according to whom? Excellent posting. If a thief breaks into one's house and breaks their leg, can they escape from responsibility by claiming that burglary has harmed them too? :) True, this is an oversimplification, but I get the gist of what you're saying. One one level, the 'mehn's movement' can be seen as an attempt by men to horn in on the "authenticity" of the women's movement, trying to outdo women at feminism and oppression...on the other hand, one can also certainly see how patriarchy does prevent men from expressing emotional closeness in some ways, and a host of other things. One should be careful not to identify one with the other, I suppose... --Finagle ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Finagle's Creed:| The IrReverend Finagle the Polymorphously Perverse Science is true,| High Epopt of Greater Pangea Don't be misled | Edward Durflinger [DURFLING@GRIN1.BITNET] by facts! | Box 4-66, Grinnell College Grinnell, Iowa 50112 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Don't just eat that hamburger--eat the HELL out of it!--J.R. "Bob" Dobbs ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jun 91 16:09:00 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: BCJ@PSUVM.BITNET Subject: Re: HELP ON AFRICA In-Reply-To: "Cecilia Manrique -- Wed, 5 Jun 91 10:07:00 CDT You might consider using email to communicate with African students in the U.S. Joyce Neu runs a list dedicated to crosscultural communication and may be able to offer some helpful advice; you may even want to link your project with hers. You can get in touch with her at JN0@PSUVM.BITNET or JN0@PSUVM.PSU.EDU. By the way, I admire Joyce's work, and think it's important to add a disclaimer: I haven't consulted her about this. Kevin Berland ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jun 91 16:40:00 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: NVASHN@NCSUMVS.BITNET Subject: unsubscribe nvashn@ncsumvs unscubscribe nvashn@ncsumvs ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jun 91 18:11:46 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: FLANNAGA@OUACCVMB.BITNET In pre-school, where my daughter is now, it hurts to be excluded from Julia's little clique. Morgan's in it, because Julia plans to marry him someday, and usually my daughter Elisabeth is in it too, but when Julia's in a bad mood and Elisabeth is excluded, her feelings are hurt. When I am excluded from being in an in-group, whether it is a country club or a discussion group, it still hurts. And when I am fixed like a specimen with a pin, as "one of the boys," it hurts. In the case of the WMST-L group, the discussion has become more moderat, the level of discussion raised above the playground and the sandbox, but I am still excluded as one of the boys, unenlightened, unfashionable, un-up on the current jargon, probably still savage, still primitive, probably a secret racist, hater of women, even if I don't say so in public. Because this list has a point of view and a critical perspective, it has built-in assumptions, such as "Most men are pigs." Members of this list can attack any man without fear of reprisal because they have the support of the support-group. This is not one-on-one debate: it is debate with an audience watching, with automatic reader-response anticipated; so within this context and on this list it is permissible to attack men but not allow women to be attacked. The cliche of shrillness is there, in the attack. But for feminism and feminist criticism to be taken seriously and not to subject itself to meaningful attacks, it needs to moderate its shrillness and stop its self-defensive attack of all men as natural brutes. Does feminism really need to hate men any more? Isn't it secure enough in itself to speak maturely, without rancor? The feminists in my department and in our Women's Studies Department are secure enough to do that. I too would like to raise the level of discourse on this list, above boy-girl arguments and above hateful and spiteful generalizations about the male sex. I would like to ask what the readership thinks are the ten best achievements of the feminist movement, and what feminists think are the ten worst threats to that movement. There was an eloquent "Hers" column in last Sunday's NY Times Magazine concerning the importance of an abortion to a woman who had one in 1959, and I would place the right to a legal abortion to be one of the most important (but now threatened) achievements of the feminist movement. I would also rank equal rights and equal support for athletics (at least in the academic world) higher than many achievements, partly because Title 9 has demonstrated to women that they should have no shame for athletic achievements. I have seen real gains for women professionally in the academic world: one friend is now a college president and my own department is coming close to numerical, if not salaried, parity. The most articulate and vocal member of my university's Trustees is a millionaire woman physicist. The advancements that have been made have mostly come since 1962 or so, with the acceptance and wide-spread use of the birth-control pill, which really did liberate women from the burden of unwanted pregnancy and forced marriage. The social and professional changes have come amazingly fast, even though parity is long in coming. The changes are not token changes: they are real and they are concerned with real money, real duties, real changes in the structure of the family. The changes are world-wide and have to do with divorce laws in Italy, the education of women in Japan, support for unwed mothers in Denmark. A real revolution has occurred, generally bloodless. Unlike Loie and some others on this list, I do not see middle or upper-class women in developed countries as behind barbed wire, which suggests a concentration camp. I see real possibilities for the advancement of women wherever local prejudices and ignorance do not oppress all local men and women. In academia, we have the leisure to become theoretical, to espouse the latest Lacan or most fashionable Foucault or Fish, whereas in Appalachian Ohio the wife of an abusive miner or drunken farmer may still have to answer the phone for her husband, do his wash, take his abuse and hold a menial job as well. I have lived around the brute farmers or miners or college professors, but I treat my female colleagues as equals, with respect. If their record in teaching, administration and scholarship is equal to mine in quality, I expect them to be paid as much or more than I make, with no apologies due on either side. So things are not so bad, much of the barbed wire is down, and we all have the leisure to bitch about having better conditions. Back to my earlier point: could we discuss what feminisim has done, practically and theoretically, to raise awareness, to uncover true history or herstory, to change the use of language, to stop or slow the abuse of women, to help create parity in the workplace. Roy Flannagan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jun 91 20:04:00 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: JLANDES@HAMPVMS.BITNET Subject: unsubscribe JLANDES@hampvms.bitnet unsubscribe JLANDES@hampvms.bitnet ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jun 91 20:33:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: ASK Subject: trashin' men This is in response to a long post by Roy Flanagan. I think feminist men have to learn that when one writes about "men" and "white men" they are not talking about *every* man. We are talking about a society. We make generalizations. We know you're one of the good guys. Now let's get back to the discussion. ASK fac_askahn@jmuvax (bitnet) fac_askahn@vax1.acs.jmu.edu (internet) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jun 91 19:49:00 CDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Michael Ossar Subject: grammar Can we have an end to sentences like "if a thief breaks into a house and breaks their leg"? One can be just as pc without committing grammatical barbarisms by saying "if thieves break into a house and break their legs." If one is being hypothetical anyhow, one might as well posit several clumsy thieves. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jun 91 00:47:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: trish Subject: RE: Feminist Scholarship/Gender Issues thomas asks: >I would like to hear more on the nature of feminist scholarship that does >not focus on gender issues. What would be the standpoint of such >scholarship that would qualify it as feminist? Wouldn't it be feminist in >the same sense that the free-floating critical theory of "cultural" Marxists >like Jameson (theory that has lost any connection to or basis in the >perspectives of the working class) is Marxist? feminist scholarship embeds its research in the perspective which attempts to utilize women's experience, instead of men's, to generate (social)scientific evidence ...feminist research admits to a point-of-view which challenges traditional (masculine-oriented) epistemological assumptions that men's experience, judgements, and values are the norm of human experience, with women and their experience as merely a deviant form of men's ... thus, i think gender issues are implicit, if not explicit, in all feminist research ... trish ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< trish wilson mc master university wilsont@sscvax.cis.mcmaster.ca hamilton,ontario,canada <<<<>>>> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jun 91 04:14:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: DON'T PANIC HITCHIKER'S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY Subject: Re: according to whom? In response to bb, early in the am. You not only are right, you should not have been positioned to have to take a defensive position on this bulletin board. As I logged in this am, I was about to unsubscribe after receiving a rather nasty message from the same sender--not over the board, but "privately" Reading it my response was--who the**** needs this! AFter reading your message I beging to wonder exactly what is the subtext and agenda of recent joiners.... Take care Loie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jun 91 09:37:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: HENKING@HWS.BITNET Subject: Re: according to whom? i agree totally with the woman who wrote "We owe [men] solidarity in struggle not help in finding the easy way out." I am puzzled and dismayed by this discussion; it rmeinds me of discussions in class when white students say that the fact that they can't safely walk in black neighborhoods is the same as blacks (african americans) being unable to safely walk in white neighborhoods. . . . in that case, i try to distinguish between the lengthy HISTORY of oppressive relations between whites and blacks and the roles which whites have historically (and presently) as relatively powerful. i am made nuts by the idea that "reverse discrimination" is the same thing as "discrimination." That argument seems to me to be ahistorical and irresponsible. (pardon the flames here). perhaps we should all return to basics -- like the excellent work of bell hooks on racism and sexism which reminds us that the distribution of power is a complex thing . .. . ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jun 91 09:30:55 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2 From: "Leonard P. Hirsch" Subject: trashin' men In-Reply-To: note of 06/05/91 20:35 From: Leonard P. Hirsch Office of International Relations/Q-3123 (202) 357-4788 >they are not talking about *every* man... In discussions on social change, _careful_ and purposive use of language is mandatory. Without a debate on whose pain is worse (we know) the sloppy use of the inclusive generic, like the use of the male generic--he, his, mankind--gives the wrong signals and images. As a white male, one who is strongly allied with the feminist movement, I can assure you that it is disabling to us when such language is used. Just as using humankind starts to empower all persons, & using enslaved persons starts to rehumanize victimized blacks (read a passage on slavery and replace slaves with enslaved persons and notice the perceptual difference), using a more carefully targetted terminology for the dominant structures and oppressive groups and social systems will clarify our thoughts, our theories, our praxis, and equally importantly, politically enable all persons to feel inclusive in the process of social change and development. +-----------------------------------------------------+ | Leonard Hirsch (202) 357-4788/FAX (202)786-2557 | | Smithsonian Institution BITNET INCEM005@SIVM | +-----------------------------------------------------+ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jun 91 09:45:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: HENKING@HWS.BITNET I wonder if it would be possible to consider the followign changes on this list: could people's requests to unsubscribe not be sent around to everyone? (i get them all the time.) and might we consider consolidating some of the mail thats coming out? i am overwhelmed by the large number of messages sometimes . . . on a more substantive topic, there have been several messages lately which have characterized this list as about hating men (or somehow hostile to men). this characterization is often accompanied with how the various labels going on here "hurt" various people, often men. it seems clear to me that feminism is not about hating men -- and that the withdrawal of support from men (often of traditional support) is experienced as an attack. maybe i am crazy, but so often i hear from men around me that feminism hurts them -- and of course it does, because it asks them to give up power based ontheir gender alone. oh hell -- i can't find adequate words for the utter discouragement that this list brings out in me. feminism is a systemic analysis of the role of gender hierarchy (in intersection with race, class etcetera); personalizing the systemic analysis as you hurt me seems to me counterproductive. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jun 91 07:09:10 PST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: ANTHONY SHARON Subject: Feminist/Gender Studies Feminist Studies / Women's Studies / Gender Studies.... A line of questioning is current on the board about the above topics, and whether feminist studies includes anything other than gender studies. It seems to me that though feminist and women's studies are generally interpretted as synonomous that gender studies is not necessarily so. In fact, it may be yet another example of an academic initiative which erases itself. I don't believe that feminism is a theoretical approach ... rather it is a perspective, some might say a consciousness. As such, for those who have said consciousness --labled or not-- it is not something which gets parked at the door when the issue is not gender related. This consciousness generalizes because intrinsic to it is the realization of organization and power. It ideally also involves an awareness of subtelties, whether those be the covert ways in which oppression is propagated and enforced, or say the potential impacts of ecological interference. In other words, we may be able to put feminism in a box with clearly defined limits, but awareness is not so easily contained. An example of the pervasivenss of feminism as an awareness is one which I have heard over and over - "I sometimes wish I hadn't started seeing things this way because it makes the world a damned uncomfortable place to live in. Nothing can be accepted at face value any more." Or statements to that affect. Perhaps part of this is a growing awareness of oneself and one's class as "other" or as "other so less". I think this is true whether the otherness is gender, racial, sexual preference, class (...) based. Essentially, I am talking about looking at the world and one's life from some vista which is not the normative (which might be read as hierarchical, patriarcical, white, heterosexual, christian) perspective. Coming back to the original issue... I certainly hope that feminist studies includes more than gender. One of the concepts which I feel is critical to teaching any type of minority course -whether women, black, hispanic, or whatever- is to pass along to students the ability to see with different than traditional culture eyes. Certainly, we are also attempting to fill in experiential and knowledge gaps as well, but I think the covert hope of many of us in these areas is that of social change... and social change typically doesn't happen on a rational basis (i.e. knowledge), but because of changes in perception, belief, etc. Sharon Anthony SLA@PCCCP6 Sharon Anthony [Portland Community College] ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jun 91 07:13:23 PST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: ANTHONY SHARON Subject: Is sexism real? After watching the dialogue about the relative destructiveness of the sociaization of males and females, and indeed whether the oppression of women is "real" in this day an age, I have decided to throw in my 2 cents worth. I find it difficult to believe that the existence of sexism is in question (i.e. eric crump 6/4). I thought we had some sort of concensus as social scientists that we do live in a sexist and racist society - or at least in a hierarchical society, which by definition means some folks are better than others (and better off than others). Which by further extrapolation would suggest the existence of methods for maintaining the social structure and the status positions of those existing in the structure. Can any of us actually deny the disadvantaged hierarchical status of women and people of color (and yes, even of women who are people of color) with the hard numbers in front of us? Numbers such as: the number of women who drop below the poverty line when they separate from their husbands; the rates of violence against women; the ratio of female to male earnings? Further these are not just majority race (anglo) statistics, but are reflected consistently across all races. Women of color are discriminated against as women as well as racial minorities, and the ratios of gender based oppression exist within racial groups as well as across them. Sorry, I'm preaching to the choir. Sharon Anthony SLA@PCCCP6 Sharon Anthony [Portland Community College] ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jun 91 10:45:00 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "ESPOSITO, JACKIE" Subject: Sophonisba Breckenridge I am currently pursuing research on the career of Sophonisba Breckenridge and its relation to International peace Movements during the 9102's & 1930's as well as general activities of politically active women post- suffrage. Any ideas, comments, recommendations would be immensely helpful. Jackie Esposito, Penn State University JRE@PSULIAS.BITNET ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jun 91 11:04:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: THOMAS BRIDGES Subject: Feminist Scholarship/Gender Issues The interest motivating my formuation of Rhoda Unger's original question about the relationship between feminist scholarship and gender issues is the issue raised by Nancy Fraser, Linda Nicholson and others: namely, how to "postmodernize" feminist theory and scholarship. What would a thoroughly postmodernist (post-foundationalist and non-essentialist) feminism look like? Trish Wilson's response to my question shows some of the problems that are involved. She says that "feminist scholarship embeds its research in the perspective which attempts to utilize women's experience. . .to generate social scientific evidence." She adds that this perspective "challenges traditional (masculine oriented) epistemological assumptions." The problem is that Trish's characterization of the perspective and practice of feminist scholarship is laden with foundationalist and essentialist and universalist assumptions. It assumes that there is one perspective that embodies the experience of all women. It speaks of "research" and "scientific evidence" as if the result of feminist scholarship is a discourse that simply mirrors an extra-linguistic reality. The irony here is that to make such claims for feminist scholarship is to permit the critical perspective of feminism to be captured by the very (masculine-oriented) epistemological assumptions it seeks to overthrow. How can we free the critical impulses of feminism (and other bodies of critical discourse grounded in class, race, sex and ethnic perspectives) from the dead hand of foundationalist epistemology? For any of these critical discourses to be captured by essentialist and universalist notions such as "research" and "scientific evidence," is to diminish or at least limit their power to effect change. In this sense, postmodernism and feminism most definitely share a common ground--postmodernism being a discourse aimed at liberating and enhancing the power of other critical discourses. The difficult thing is to define the relationship between feminism and postmodernism at the right place. Tom Bridges bridges@apollo.montclair.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jun 91 10:11:56 CDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Mary Kay Schleiter Subject: What is going on here? I have also been very discouraged by what I have observed here -- not a feminist discussion but an attack on feminists. I see this as a part of what bell hooks defines as "the secret police", people (she was referring to blacks, but it could just as easily be used to refer to women's studies people) who work within the university to make sure nothing is said that contradicts the status quo. We have the option of simply ignoring that group and just getting on with our own discussion. As Sonya Johnson says, to fight is to participate. Mary Kay mks@vacs.uwp.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jun 91 12:19:00 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "Janet L. Fields" Subject: Men vs. Women? Re: Roy Flannagan's recent message: I read the total message from R. Flannagan and felt I was reading words from two different people. At first ( and still) I thought Mr. F. had several good points.Such as his feelings re: comments about "all men"; unfortunately, this type phrasing is very common when discussions are on-going about social groups. What is the preferred method? Is it "the majority of men" or "most men" or * used with disclaimers at the end of the message? I feel angry when I hear "all ---(any group)---." I then look at other comments that I find frustrating and aggravating. Just because Mr. F. fells he treats women as equal that doesn't mean that treatment is found across the board - or even in a majority of cases. That doesn't show to me that things are much better. And I don't feel the changes have been bloodless. Perhaps so, if you look at literal interpretations. I don't make that interpretation. Just because violence has not been a major part in this struggle, that doesn't mean the struggle has been without physical pain. I have been there on the receiving end and as a participant in the struggle. When you see children you are left to care for hungry and sick because you cannot get a job to provde money for the family, it's difficult to view the process as bloodless. Particularly when the father is doing well financially. Particularly when you receive threats of physical violence prior to going into court to determine the divorce settlement. This experience is not as uncommon as might be thought today. I see references about "brute farmers",:"miners", and people from "Appalaichian Ohio" compared to the elite academian group Mr. F. belongs to. I find those comments abrasive. What place do derogatory adjectives and stratas based on professions and geographic locations have in this forum? I thought Mr. F. was against this comments such as "all men", let alone "brute farmers." Is he doing this to try to prove a point? I just find it offensive, not enlightening. I believe statistics prove disparities occur in every profession and in every geographic location. I also find his comments regarding the equality of farmer's wives rather strange, considering the exposure I've had to many of them. Most I've known help each other - I see the women out doing the heavy work as much as the men. Janet Fields jlfields@apgea.army.mil ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jun 91 12:44:32 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: DO Andrew Callahan Subject: Re: trashin' men I'm responding to ASK's response to Roy Flanagan's long post. ASK's position is that "feminist men have to learn that when one writes about 'men' and 'white men' they are not talking about *every* man. We are talking about a society. We make generalizations." As a white man, and probably a "feminist man" I resent both the use of "men" to represent society and being told that I "have to learn that when..." If I, as a white man, wrote that "women have to learn that men..." I think I would offend many women. I think ASK has offended many men. Andrew Callahan callahan@sunburn.ec.usf.edu (Internet) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jun 91 09:48:00 MST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: LEONARDP@CARAT.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Soviet women My special area of interest is Soviet women. I'd like to someday (probably when I finish grad school) compile a database on Soviet women: history, literature, personal experiences--everything. I have a good start on a personal library of books and articles by or about Soviet women. I'd love to hear from any feminists who are also interested in this. We could exchange notes on database software and source materials. Patt Leonard leonardp@mis.arizona.edu leonardp@arizmis ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jun 91 12:52:22 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: DO Andrew Callahan Subject: RE: Feminist Scholarship/Gender Issues trish defines feminist scholarship in part as follows >feminist scholarship imbeds its research in the perspective which >attempts to utilize women's experience, instead of men's, to generate >(social)scientific evidence.... Somehow, this seems to miss the point entirely to me, because the Scientific Method and its offspring (social) scientific evidence are products and perspectives of the dominant male system of coming to know and understand. I'm not sure that generating social scientific evidence will ever help the feminist cause, because, generating social scientific evidence is the dominant male way of doing things. Andrew Callahan callahan@sunburn.ec.usf.edu (Internet) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jun 91 10:18:38 PDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Betty J Glass Subject: Are the times a-changing? To continue the response to Mr. F, I have lived in 4 states. From graduate student housing to apartments (large and small complexes) to my own house, domestic violence was in each neighborhood. The message one woman received from her family was that marriage to any man (no matter what he did to her) was better than not being married. He brought home his work-related stress and vented it on her frequently. About 2 years ago I sat in on a "Men and Women in Modern Society" course. The professor and I were appalled that the students were not aware of the significance of the availability of the birth control pill in changing women's (and men's) lives. These were students mostly from rural Illinois. They seemed to have no sense of the dramatic social changes which have occurred since the sixties. Finally, the professor asked some of the female students what work they wished to pursue after college. One young woman promptly announced she planned to be a corporation executive--"You know, like on Dynasty." So, while some have benefitted from the hard-won gains of the feminist movement, the amount of work yet to be done is staggering. It isn't so far-fetched to compare the experiences of women and Jews. Our barbed wire is no less real just because it is transparent. Like Israel, there is a very real need for constant vigilence to maintain what has been achieved and to prevent losing ground. Betty Glass glass@equinox.unr.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jun 91 13:21:00 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Joan Korenman Subject: Some thoughts about WMST-L Hi. I've been away at a conference for the past five days. My apologies to those people who sent me messages about mail problems and got no response. I've been working on the problems and will continue to do so. Anyway, as "listowner" of WMST-L, I'd like to offer a somewhat belated greeting to all WMST-L subscribers and try to clarify a few matters. First of all, please remember that if you decide to unsubscribe, review the list of subscribers, change your subscription options, etc., DO NOT SEND SUCH MESSAGES TO WMST-L but rather to LISTSERV@UMDD (Bitnet) or LISTSERV@UMDD.UMD.EDU (Internet). Also, in sending messages either to WMST-L or to LISTSERV, you must use the same e-mail address you subscribed under. If you subscribed under a Bitnet address, for example, you can't send messages to the list or unsubscribe using an Internet address. The listserv software will only recognize the exact address you used when you subscribed. Some people have wondered about the male/female ratio on WMST-L. When the list started (less than three weeks ago), the ratio was about 2:1 female to male. Since then, my impression is that the percentage of women has increased. If you'd like to know who the subscribers are, you can get a file containing the current list by sending an e-mail message to LISTSERV@UMDD or LISTSERV@UMDD.UMD.EDU (do NOT send the message to WMST-L!). In the body of the message, write only the following: REVIEW WMST-L You'll receive a file within minutes. One more "housekeeping" note: if you're planning to be away and don't want mail from WMST-L to pile up in your absence, you can stop mail while remaining a subscriber by sending the following command to LISTSERV@UMDD or the Internet equivalent: SET WMST-L NOMAIL To receive mail again when you return, send a message to the same address that says SET WMST-L MAIL At the risk of making this message intolerably long, I'd like to say a few words about my intentions in starting WMST-L. Frankly, I did not envision WMST-L as a forum for fights over male/female relations, etc. There exist other electronic forums where such discussions already take place. What was needed, I felt, was not another such forum but rather something more "academic" that would serve the needs primarily of Women's Studies faculty, students, and administrators. As the director of a Women's Studies program and a faculty member who teaches a course on women in literature, I guess I envisioned the list as serving as a kind of perpetual Women's Studies conference. Each year at the National Women's Studies Association meeting, I attend sessions where people talk about creating majors or graduate programs, and about what they teach in their Intro course or their feminist theory course, and how they deal with disruptive students or unsympathetic administrators; I also go to sessions where people present their scholarship and seek feedback, or recommend useful books and articles, or talk about new sources of funding for WMST projects, etc. etc. People also exchange syllabi and announcements and information about job opportunities. It seems to me that WMST-L can provide an opportunity for a similar exchange of information and ideas year round rather than only at conferences. I welcome your response. Joan Korenman Internet: korenman@umbc2.umbc.edu Bitnet: korenman@umbc REVIEW WMST-L You'll receive a file within minutes. One more "housekeeping" note: if you're planning to be away and don't want mail from WMST-L to pile up in your absence, you can stop mail while remaining a subscriber by sending the following command to LISTSERV@UMDD or the Internet equivalent: SET WMST-L NOMAIL To receive mail again when you return, send a message to the same Date: Thu, 6 Jun 91 13:21 EDT From: Joan Korenman Subject: Some thoughts about WMST-L To: wmst-l@umdd Original_To: JNET%"wmst-l@umdd" Original_cc: KORENMAN Hi. I've been away at a conference for the past five days. My apologies to those people who sent me messages about mail problems and got no response. I've been working on the problems and will continue to do so. Anyway, as "listowner" of WMST-L, I'd like to offer a somewhat belated greeting to all WMST-L subscribers and try to clarify a few matters. First of all, please remember that if you decide to unsubscribe, review the list of subscribers, change your subscription options, etc., DO NOT SEND SUCH MESSAGES TO WMST-L but rather to LISTSERV@UMDD (Bitnet) or LISTSERV@UMDD.UMD.EDU (Internet). Also, in sending messages either to WMST-L or to LISTSERV, you must use the same e-mail address you subscribed under. If you subscribed under a Bitnet address, for example, you can't send messages to the list or unsubscribe using an Internet address. The listserv software will only recognize the exact address you used when you subscribed. Some people have wondered about the male/female ratio on WMST-L. When the list started (less than three weeks ago), the ratio was about 2:1 female to male. Since then, my impression is that the percentage of women has increased. If you'd like to know who the subscribers are, you can get a file containing the current list by sending an e-mail message to LISTSERV@UMDD or LISTSERV@UMDD.UMD.EDU (do NOT send the message to WMST-L!). In the body of the message, write only the following: REVIEW WMST-L You'll receive a file within minutes. One more "housekeeping" note: if you're planning to be away and don't want mail from WMST-L to pile up in your absence, you can stop mail while remaining a subscriber by sending the following command to LISTSERV@UMDD or the Internet equivalent: SET WMST-L NOMAIL To receive mail again when you return, send a message to the same address that says SET WMST-L MAIL At the risk of making this message intolerably long, I'd like to say a few words about my intentions in starting WMST-L. Frankly, I did not envision WMST-L as a forum for fights over male/female relations, etc. There exist other electronic forums where such discussions already take place. What was needed, I felt, was not another such forum but rather something more "academic" that would serve the needs primarily of Women's Studies faculty, students, and administrators. As the director of a Women's Studies program and a faculty member who teaches a course on women in literature, I guess I envisioned the list as serving as a kind of perpetual Women's Studies conference. Each year at the National Women's Studies Association meeting, I attend sessions where people talk about creating majors or graduate programs, and about what they teach in their Intro course or their feminist theory course, and how they deal with disruptive students or unsympathetic administrators; I also go to sessions where people present their scholarship and seek feedback, or recommend useful books and articles, or talk about new sources of funding for WMST projects, etc. etc. People also exchange syllabi and announcements and information about job opportunities. It seems to me that WMST-L can provide an opportunity for a similar exchange of information and ideas year round rather than only at conferences. I welcome your response. Joan Korenman Internet: korenman@umbc2.umbc.edu Bitnet: korenman@umbc REVIEW WMST-L You'll receive a file within minutes. One more "housekeeping" note: if you're planning to be away and don't want mail from WMST-L to pile up in your absence, you can stop mail while remaining a subscriber by sending the following command to LISTSERV@UMDD or the Internet equivalent: SET WMST-L NOMAIL Date: Thu, 6 Jun 91 13:21 EDT From: Joan Korenman Subject: Some thoughts about WMST-L To: wmst-l@umdd Original_To: JNET%"wmst-l@umdd" Original_cc: KORENMAN Hi. I've been away at a conference for the past five days. My apologies to those people who sent me messages about mail problems and got no response. I've been working on the problems and will continue to do so. Anyway, as "listowner" of WMST-L, I'd like to offer a somewhat belated greeting to all WMST-L subscribers and try to clarify a few matters. First of all, please remember that if you decide to unsubscribe, review the list of subscribers, change your subscription options, etc., DO NOT SEND SUCH MESSAGES TO WMST-L but rather to LISTSERV@UMDD (Bitnet) or LISTSERV@UMDD.UMD.EDU (Internet). Also, in sending messages either to WMST-L or to LISTSERV, you must use the same e-mail address you subscribed under. If you subscribed under a Bitnet address, for example, you can't send messages to the list or unsubscribe using an Internet address. The listserv software will only recognize the exact address you used when you subscribed. Some people have wondered about the male/female ratio on WMST-L. When the list started (less than three weeks ago), the ratio was about 2:1 female to male. Since then, my impression is that the percentage of women has increased. If you'd like to know who the subscribers are, you can get a file containing the current list by sending an e-mail message to LISTSERV@UMDD or LISTSERV@UMDD.UMD.EDU (do NOT send the message to WMST-L!). In the body of the message, write only the following: REVIEW WMST-L You'll receive a file within minutes. One more "housekeeping" note: if you're planning to be away and don't want mail from WMST-L to pile up in your absence, you can stop mail while remaining a subscriber by sending the following command to LISTSERV@UMDD or the Internet equivalent: SET WMST-L NOMAIL To receive mail again when you return, send a message to the same address that says SET WMST-L MAIL At the risk of making this message intolerably long, I'd like to say a few words about my intentions in starting WMST-L. Frankly, I did not envision WMST-L as a forum for fights over male/female relations, etc. There exist other electronic forums where such discussions already take place. What was needed, I felt, was not another such forum but rather something more "academic" that would serve the needs primarily of Women's Studies faculty, students, and administrators. As the director of a Women's Studies program and a faculty member who teaches a course on women in literature, I guess I envisioned the list as serving as a kind of perpetual Women's Studies conference. Each year at the National Women's Studies Association meeting, I attend sessions where people talk about creating majors or graduate programs, and about what they teach in their Intro course or their feminist theory course, and how they deal with disruptive students or unsympathetic administrators; I also go to sessions where people present their scholarship and seek feedback, or recommend useful books and articles, or talk about new sources of funding for WMST projects, etc. etc. People also exchange syllabi and announcements and information about job opportunities. It seems to me that WMST-L can provide an opportunity for a similar exchange of information and ideas year round rather than only at conferences. I welcome your response. Joan Korenman Internet: korenman@umbc2.umbc.edu Bitnet: korenman@umbc ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jun 91 14:57:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: ASK Subject: offensiveness >As a white man, and probably a "feminist man" I resent both the use of >"men" to represent society and being told that I "have to learn that when..." *sigh* >If I, as a white man, wrote that "women have to learn that men..." I think >I would offend many women. I think ASK has offended many men. Interesting point. Can one be a feminist without offending people? Must we be deflected from issues by men who don't want to be included in the category men? Must we specify each individual man? Here is a quote from a manuscript I am working on, "The bias within psychology to assume a white, middle-class, heterosexual norm has received great attention from feminist scholars." Do I mean every study or piece of scholarship in psychology? No. Do I mean every feminist scholar? No. >Andrew Callahan >callahan@sunburn.ec.usf.edu (Internet) ASK ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jun 91 14:49:01 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: FLANNAGA@OUACCVMB.BITNET Subject: Are the times a-changing? Partial answer: yes, but slowly, and the issues are social and educational. I agree with Betty Glass and Janet Fields that domestic violence not gone away. The example I gave of "uneducated" people might serve for "educated brutes" as well. I don't want to seem to be deprecating the life of farmers' wives, having lived on a farm for about eleven years: the strongest people I knew in the farming community were the wives, and they did work physically, in the harvest as well as in the kitchen, in the barn as well as in any menial jobs open to "uneducated" (not dumb) people that would help pay the mortgage. I did see those same women reduced to the subservience of "Woman, get me a beer" at home, though I did not happen to know any who were victims of domestic violence. In my catalogue of brute men, I added "college professors" to "farmers" and "miners" in order to spread the blame around the social strata (in this area, miners are middle-class and earn about as much as professors). Ignorance does breed domestic violence, just as the example of the ignorance of the birth-control pill shows. And domestic violence on any social level leaves innocent children hurt and hungry. Are the majority of American women behind a barbed wire fence of men's erecting, one that they cannot see? If the fence is there and the women cannot see it, then the fault is in their education (at the hands of men and women). If the fence, even a metaphorical fence is there, then it is the responsibility of women and men to cut through it first and remove it later. It is the responsiblity of feminists to make men and women see the fence and help to cut it and get rid of it. Then, if the times really are a-changing, we will be able to go to a museum in the future and see pieces of the barbed wire to remind us that the fence did indeed exist and should always be guarded against. Roy Flannagan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jun 91 15:48:42 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Andreas N Alexandrou Subject: Re: Are the times a-changing? Betty Glass writes, "So, while some have benefitted from the hard-won gains of the feminist movement, the amount of work yet to be done is staggering. It isn't so far-fetched to compare the experiences of women and Jews.Our barbed wire is no less real just because it is transparent. Like Israel, there is a very real need for constant vigilence to maintain what has been achieved and to prevent losing ground." While I understand the comparison between anti-semitism and sexism/violence against women, I'm afraid I don't understand the reference to Israel and would appreciate an explanation. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jun 91 15:17:09 cdt Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "Finagle, etc. (Durflinger,Edward M)" As far as using "their" as a third person singular goes, I choose it because it is an option already present in the English language. It is commonly used in oral speech, and if you do some research, you will find that "their" as third person singular has a perfectly acceptable history of use until modern history--much like the perfectly good contraction, "ain't." There is no reason why a language must be frozen in time like a fossil--meanings and usages of words should change according to utility. As far as being pc goes, I could care less how "pc" I am. I act on the basis of personal convictions that have been carefully thought out more than a few times. You, however, have no way of knowing this, and could simply have presented your scholarly point without haveing your little barb about 'pcness' tossed in for good measure. Can we be a little more mature than this? --Finagle ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Finagle's Creed:| The IrReverend Finagle the Polymorphously Perverse Science is true,| High Epopt of Greater Pangea Don't be misled | Edward Durflinger [DURFLING@GRIN1.BITNET] by facts! | Box 4-66, Grinnell College Grinnell, Iowa 50112 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Don't just eat that hamburger--eat the HELL out of it!--J.R. "Bob" Dobbs ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jun 91 16:46:19 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Bronwyn Subject: Re: according to whom? In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 6 Jun 91 04:14:00 EST from This is regarding my response to "According to Whom?", written yesterday. Of course, when I came in today there were many responses to my response waiting in my "mailbox". Unfortunately, being computer illiterate, I erased one in the middle of reading it. Would the gentleman who sent me the message including the statement "You are quite right to keep us from copping out and making us continually redefine our manhood, but..." please get back to me? I blanked out the message at exactly that point and the suspense is (no irony intended) killing me. I'd really like to know what he said. Bronwyn University of Florida ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jun 91 15:08:10 CDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: cliff staples In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 6 Jun 91 14:49:01 EST from Since Joan Korenman went to the trouble of setting up this list, with rather specific purposes in mind (I have now learned), I plan to address further postings to those purposes. And while the line between politics and pedogogy has hopefully been forever demolished, I think I get the message. I don't administer a Women's Studies program but I may have the opportunity in the next year or so to teach Intro. to Women's Studies. Now, I have been a "guest speaker" (you know, your token New Age Sensitive Guy a la Christine Lavin), but have never been THE INSTRUCTOR. In fact, I've never heard of *gasp* a man doing this. It isn't "Intro to Men's Studies" nor is it "Intro to gender Studies." Doing this (or perhaps even NOT doing it) creates all sorts of interesting (and terrifying) personal, political, and pedogogical possibilities. Along these lines, I'd be very interested to hear from anyone who 1) knows of any male who has ever done this 2) has experiences as a male "doing women's studies" kinds of things (or can relate experiences males have had doing these kinds of things, 3) has advice, counsel, opinion on these matters. Will Women's Studies remain Women's Studies if a man teaches it? Is this the (dreaded by some, longed for by others) ultimate depoliticization of Women's Movement in academia? Enquiring minds wanna know. regards, Cliff Staples More: This would transform the WS classroom from a place nominally FOR WOMEN to study WOMEN into (simply?) a place to study WOMEN. For us on the side of angels: is this good or bad? It seems to me that this gets to the heart of struggles I(we) face daily about empowerment in the classroom. What would be lost, in such a transformed setting, that is essential to the Women's Studies experience? (I know some women who teach WS classes very differently depending upon the gender composition of the class). p.s. I'm not trying to inflame any male vs. female fires here. If responses are not likely to interest all, please respond via private e-mail and I'll do the same. Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jun 91 17:14:43 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: MIKE Subject: RE: Re Cliff Staples request ... At Western Michigan University a variety of people teach Women, Past Present and Future ... one is male, Larry TenHarmsel, mostly off campus to non-traditional students. I "conduct" (vs. "teach") the only "women's" course in the College of Business, Women in Management. It's sort of interesting the first day ... the reactions to the (mostly) female (oops! I meant "by") students range from outrage to "kind of neat." I run the course as a career planning/professional development/how to "succeed" sot type of thing and (apparently) seems to work OK (considering continuing enrollment) Mike Keenan (keenan@gw.wmich.edu) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jun 91 14:54:00 MST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: LEONARDP@CARAT.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: men teaching women's studies courses I would not want to take a women's studies course taught by a man. I remember the day in an Intro to Women's Studies class when we were covering health issues, and a fellow student started talking about her experiences with her gynecologist. No way would she have spoken about it if a male were conducting the class. I believe this kind of personal discussion is an important part of a women's studies program, and male professors, as a rule, inhibit female students' willingness to speak in class. Patt Leonard leonardp@mis.arizona.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jun 91 15:35:43 PDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Betty J Glass Subject: men teaching women In response to Patt Leonard's observation about male professors inhibiting female students, I'll certainly never forget the time my 8th grade science teacher (female) whacked the top of my desk with her yardstick. (I was lining up my pen ready to jot down whatever she had to say and my "fidgeting' offended her.) She scared the bejesus out of me and I retreated to the back of the classroom, never to utter a word the entire term. This was in sad contrast to my 7th grade science teacher (male) also my first black teacher, who was marvelously gifted as a teacher (non-sadistic, non-sexist) and also all too soon out of teaching and back in industry as a chemist thanks to the reception he generally received as a black teacher in the South in the '60s. Sooooo, it all depends on the individual teacher and how successful they are in establishing a classroom environment in which students (whatever gender) feel safe/welcome to contribute to discussions, etc. Betty Glass ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jun 91 15:50:04 PST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "ALAN C. ACOCK" Subject: Studies involving just women I'm confused. Several people have said we need to have gender as a variable in a feminist study. I take this as saying we need to examine gender differences. While some feminist research may want to examine gender differences, I would think that some feminist research might look only at males and a lot of feminist research might look only at women. The only danger in researchers looking only at women or only at men is if the long term consequence (probalby unanticipated by individual scholars) is the exclusion of research on women (or men). An example is medical researchers who excluded women from studies to simplify their design and increase their statistical power but with the cummulative result that the effects of some drugs, etc. on women is "known" only as an inference from all male samples. A similar thing happens with race, for different "technical" reasons. Many researchers exclude Blacks (or other minorities) from studies because they think race is an important variable and they have too few Blacks to test for race effects. They limit their study to a white only portion of their sample when they think race is important. Their technical reason for this may be right in every study, but the cummulative effect is we have much less research about Blacks than we do about whites. Given the historical pattern of social research focusing on men, I see no injustice in feminist scholars having gender as a constant in many studies, i.e., having only women subjects/respondents. Alan C. Acock ACOCK@ORSTVM ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jun 91 18:13:23 CST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "Kris for Diane, Jon, Eric, & all the other higher powers" Subject: Re: What is going on here? In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 6 Jun 91 10:11:56 CDT from On Thu, 6 Jun 91 10:11:56 CDT Mary Kay Schleiter said: >I have also been very discouraged by what I have observed here -- not a >feminist discussion but an attack on feminists. I see this as a part of >what bell hooks defines as "the secret police", people >(she was referring to blacks, but it could just as easily be used >to refer to women's studies people) who work within the university to make >sure nothing is said that contradicts the status quo. > >We have the option of simply ignoring that group and just getting on >with our own discussion. As Sonya Johnson says, to fight is to >participate. > >Mary Kay >mks@vacs.uwp.edu Hmmm, that's an interesting point you make but I disagree that the discussion is an "attack on feminists". My understanding from the reading I have done and the discussions I have had is that feminism is a term applied to a widely varying set of views these days. This is seen as either good or bad (or maybe a little of both) that the "movement" is not as unified as it once was believed to be. So my only point is that I am not sure that the discussion lately has been an attack on feminism but perhaps a greatly inflamed difference of opinion of what feminism should be. Perhaps that might be a constructive subject for discussion? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jun 91 21:36:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Arnie Kahn Subject: who should do what Cliff brought up a very interesting topic, one that I had intended to bring up later. Under what conditions, if any, should a man teach a women's studies course? In 1976 I received a phone call from Barbara Wallston asking me to run for secretary-treasurer of div. 35, the Psychology of Women division of the Am. Psychological Association. This seemed a pretty non-pc thing to do. Men were not supposed to be "in charge" of women's issues/programs/studies, etc. After many phone calls to feminist women I respected (remember Rhoda?), I agreed and served in that position for 3 years. Barbara's reason for asking me was that she was running for president and thought it was time to show that there could be feminist men who could be part of the solution rather than part of the problem. About the same time I organized the first women's studies course at Iowa State U., the Psychology of Women. I co-taught it with 3 women and continued to coteach it until I left ISU in 1981. When I came to James Madison U. in 1986 there was no Intro. to Women's Studies and no Psychology of Women course. There was no woman on the psych faculty I felt comfortable teaching Psych of Women with, so I did not teach it, although I did teach a course last semester on the social psychology of gender, which could have been called social psychology and feminism. It became clear to me that Intro. to Women's Studies needed to be taught at JMU and that it was just not going to happen. So I approached a female feminist colleague in econ. and asked her if she would be interested in co-teaching it with me. We will do so next spring--2 decades late, Intro. to Women's Studies will arrive on my campus. Should I be co-teaching the course? I think, in the best of worlds right now I shouldn't. If there were women involved and interested I would never have suggested my being part of that course. If asked, I would respond by asking why I should, the same response I gave Barbara Wallston 15 years ago. It's not that I don't know the material, I do. It's not that I'm not the most qualified, I may be. It's that it is another example of a man in a powerful position in a society where men are frequently in powerful positions. I cannot be the role model to the women students that others can be. Topics may not be discussed because I am present and in authority. But there can be times and reasons why it may be reasonable for a man to teach Intro. to Women's Studies. So, now the ruse is over, if there ever was one. I am ASK who initially posted asking about materials which were successful in the Intro. to Women's Studies course. I used ASK instead of Arnie Kahn because I wanted good information and did not want my sex/gender to get in the way. Thanks to all of you who provided such information. And if you've read this far, thanks for listening. Arnie Kahn ASK ========================================================================= Date: THU, 6 JUN 91 22:06:02 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: RTFC507@UTXVM.BITNET Subject: Feminism I've just come on to the list, so you'll have to excuse my lack of a complete picture regarding the discussion of feminism. As a white, heterosexual Jewish male, I'm struck by some of the more defensive postures of other men on this list. It reminds me of some of the white men I've had in my classes, who complain of reverse (or even Black racism), or reverse sexism. It strikes me how little these men know about racism, sexism or heterosexism, and how what they find so threatening is anything or anyone who challenges their position of authority, power and privilege. I can never point out to these men that the difference between attacking men and attacking women is that women's oppression is still institutionalized. I guess the roots of privilege run so deep that they can't even see this. On the other hand, I do appreciate someone's comments that we need to be careful not to continue other forms of oppression in condemning men. This someone pointed out the classist nature of one of the comments. People shouldn't have to qualify by saying "not all men." Let's face it--as men we operate from a point of privilege. But don't start using the stereotypes of lower and working class males. That just divides the struggle. Steve Carr ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jun 91 22:52:56 CDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: cliff staples Subject: Re: who should do what In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 6 Jun 91 21:36:00 EST from Thanks to all for the feedback regarding men teaching WS courses. Much food for thought. I'll keep you posted... as it were. Cliff Staples ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jun 91 00:23:53 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Florence Ginsburg Subject: men teaching women studies Should men teach women studies? I think not, afterall should a white person teach Black Studies? I think not! I think I made my point and added my 2 cents. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jun 91 04:08:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: DON'T PANIC HITCHIKER'S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY Subject: Re: men teaching women studies In an ideal world etc etc.... Just two FYIs Bernie Kaplan, developmental psyc., teaches and has been teaching for quite a while "Feminism and Other Radical Critques of the Human Sciences." Walter Wright teaches "orality & Literacy" (philosophy sort of) of which c.3/4 involves feminist critiques. Susan Hanson (geography) teaches "Gender, WOrk, and Space" The populations in these classes (on;y 3 egs. of many...are predomin. male) With the exception of Susan's course non are cross-listed as WS. There is a VERY diffcult line here..tho none of us are drawing it in the sand!!!! Best I can do is to say there is some resonance of difference in curric. mainstreaming where gender as a category of analysis is taken into account and a WomSTud course. (The sex of the person teaching the course is at CLark irrel. eg., Paul Ropp (history) teaches women in CHina which is a WS cross-list) >From initially being startled at "where things were at" on the list. From some of ASK's comments and others I realize that the strength of the WS program at Clark (active since 1976 and growing!!!) un-reminded me of colleagues struggling to get one intro. course taught. 2) We are just in the last phases of process/approval for an Interdisciplinary (transdisciplinary) PhD in WOmen's Studies. We are all quite excited about the program--if VERY tired! Anyone interested in details, just email... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jun 91 10:29:00 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: BCJ@PSUVM.BITNET Subject: Re: men teaching women studies In-Reply-To: PTB101 AT URIACC.BITNET -- Fri, 7 Jun 91 00:23:53 EDT I don't think the argument that men should not teach women's studies is helped by the attempted parallel argument: pink people should not teach black studies. The purpose of such courses, as I understand it, is *not* simply to provide an academic home for the study one one's own culture, for the nourishing of pride in one's own heritage. Black studies classes ought to be open to people of all racial and ethnic backgrounds. Everybody can profit from learning about "other" cultures. I teach Black American literature, which involves at least a little theory from Black Studies, but I am not black (I am a Canadian pink male, of Irish and Russian Jewish lineage). I tell my students that great literature is accessible to all, and that I teach Shakespeare though I am not an Elizabethan Englishman. The alternatives at my campus are simple: if I did not teach this class, it would not be offered. There is a critical shortage of minority teachers. The students need such classes, and academic administrators in many places do not have the wherewithal or the inclination to hire new people to serve expansion of curriculum. However, in spite of this argument, I would not teach Black Studies. It would be presumptuous, or at least it would be perceived so. Perhaps this is because the pedagogical model used by many Black Studies (and Women's Studies) classes involves examining life experience (something I have strong reservations about, anyway, but that's another argument), and I have no such experience. But as far as I can see, there is no reason why a nonblack teacher cannot teach such classes as African American History, black religious experience, minority psychology, the sociology of minority, political policy & civil rights, and so forth. In the same light, then, there is no reason why men cannot teach content courses under the rubric women's (or gender) studies. Kevin Berland English/Comp. Lit. Penn State / Shenango ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jun 91 10:44:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: RHODA UNGER Subject: Re: men teaching women studies After reading all of the defenses about non X's teaching X studies, I find myself agreeing in principle, but not in practice. The issue that concerns me is why do not all these men interested in feminist/gender courses agitate their departments to hire women who are qualified to teach these courses. This would solve the problem of waiting several decades for some courses to be taught and also reward women who have chosen to specialize in what are sometimes defined as marginal areas. Rhoda Unger Unger@apollo.montclair.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jun 91 10:25:00 CDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Mary Lou Goodyear I am working on a writing a research agenda to study women in the profession o f librarianship. My co-author and I are analyzing the literature of librarian- ship over the past 100 years in order to document what has been done so far. We are looking for a conceptual scheme to use for our study and the research ag enda. Any ideas or suggestions? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jun 91 10:38:00 CDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "Cecilia Manrique, Academic Computing, UWLaCrosse, (608)785-8773" Subject: MEN TEACHING WOMEN'S STUDIES In a previous posting Florence Ginsburg writes: >Should men teach women studies? I think not, afterall should a white >person teach Black Studies? I think not! I think I made my point and >added my 2 cents. I believe it reeks of the same narrow-mindedness that has been propagated by us academics to our students. The reason I say this is because I have been in a position before where a student has decided to drop my American Government and Politics course because I am oriental and not American enough even though I have a doctorate in Political Science. (I suspect the student was just overwhelmed by my writing requirement for the course and saw this as a good excuse to focus away from the issue.) It is the same kind of attitude which prevails when I try to incorporate computing in my political science classroom. (I do have another degree in Computer Science!) It is the same attitude I expect to get when I teach an African Government and Politics course this fall. (I do specialize in Comparative Politics and Third World Studies, whatever that implies!) Why do we choose to COMPARTMENTALIZE education? If education is meant to broaden our understanding of different issues then let us refrain from stereotyping. This world would be a much better place if we shed our biases. Easier said than done! Cecilia MANRIQUE@UWLAX ========================================================================= Date: FRI, 7 JUN 91 11:37:39 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Linda Johnson Subject: Re: men teaching women's studies courses I beg to differ with Patt Leonard about students not willing to talk about female/male physical differences. I teach seniors in a secondary high school and have been amazed at the responses of these students. In fact, no female or male orientation seems to be private anymore---example, one student questioned whether giving blood while one had her period would interfer with one's physical being and this was in front of the entire female/male class. Perhaps at the college level students become shy about such but not anymore at the secondary level. Personally, I haven't decided whether this is good or bad. Linda ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jun 91 10:06:53 CDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: eric crump Subject: according to whom revisited I want to thank everyone who responded to my note (subj: according to whom? 6/4), even those of you who think I'm an agent of the oppressive patriarchal boogey men. My post was intended to provoke, not necessarily anger or passion, but engagement in discussion, and I think it succeeded on that count. Indeed, as Roy Flannagan noted, men are not thrilled about being excluded any more than are women. A few members of the list have expressed some interest in suppressing (by ignoring) this discussion thread, suggesting that everyone leave the poor sniveling white males to their whining. Nice thing about CMC, though, is that those who are not interested in a particular subject--the relationship between men and feminism in this case--can (and have) continue discussions according to their own interests *without* squelching other conversations. Those of you who were willing to engage the questions and observations I posed are helping to continue the important process of discourse, which I think helps those of us who participate to learn more about each other and to strengthen and clarify our own thoughts, sometimes helping us come to new understandings in the process. Those who really would like to shut down this debate seem to me to be no better than the accursed white male oppressors, indeed seem to be emulating them. I'm not going to post a full response here. It would be too long, but I as long as I'm on the subject of squelching debate, I would like to comment on Bronwyn's interesting introduction to a note posted 5 June. "I find it rather difficult to reply to this message...(because) the author of that message is speaking in terms that nearly silence me." Differences of opinion and interpretation aside (I'll save those for another note), I would like to challenge the assertion that I could possibly silence anyone on this list. Word do matter, as Pamela noted. However, in this medium and in the context of this list and this discussion, the power of any individual to silence another is significantly reduced. The only person would could silence Bronwyn is Bronwyn. Yes, it is *difficult* to repond to a message that you strongly disagree with to the point of being exasperated, but we all face the challenge of shaping our discourse in an emotion context. Emotion can impede, but should not stop us from continuing the conversation. Some of the things said by women on this list frustrate me, but I don't think I should curl up whimpering in a corner and say the big mean feminists are picking on me. My wife warns me that I should not expect to convince or convert anyone who disagrees with me (I think she fears for my blood pressure), and I think she is right. I'm not a preacher, but unlikelihood of winning the debate does not absolve me of the responsibility to speak. It is important, I think, for diverse views to be heard and noted, difficult as it is to participate in a challenging discussion such as this one. To choose not to participate is anyone's right, but to silence one's self because the discussion is difficult strikes me as somewhat cowardly. I'm glad Bronwyn did not succumb to that temptation. In spite of the fact that I disagree with many of the comments she made, I really appreciate the effort she (and others) took to express their views. I consider that to be the solidarity you offer. Help in finding an easy way out? I don't think there is one. But we should not and will not give up just because the road is bumpy. Eric Crump lceric@umcvmb ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jun 91 12:20:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Arnie Kahn Subject: hiring in "marginal" areas >After reading all of the defenses about non X's teaching X studies, I find >myself agreeing in principle, but not in practice. The issue that concerns >me is why do not all these men interested in feminist/gender courses agitate >their departments to hire women who are qualified to teach these courses. >This would solve the problem of waiting several decades for some courses to >be taught and also reward women who have chosen to specialize in what are >sometimes defined as marginal areas. >Rhoda Unger Unger@apollo.montclair.edu Excellent point. A problem is that an area must exist for a course to be offerred. We would never get the Women's Studies program into existence without the introductory course being offerred. Someone has to offer the course. Then, once it's in the catelog I agree with you entirely. Arnie Kahn fac_askahn@vax1.acs.jmu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jun 91 12:25:26 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Florence Ginsburg Subject: Re: men teaching women studies In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 7 Jun 91 10:29:00 EDT from Kevin, You are indeed entitled to your opinion, and rather then me respond to all you points in your posting, I would just rather comment on one. Why is there no people of color there to teach these courses? I think that the obviousness of this supports the sexism/racism point! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jun 91 12:45:00 CST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: UAHSEF01@UAHVAX1.BITNET Subject: Teaching by gender and race With regard to the recent debate on whether men should teach women's studies courses or non-African Americans should teach courses in African-American studies I have a couple of observations. (1) There seem to be an assumption that we can't know or understandiss anyone, anything, or any culture other than our own. If that were the case one might make the argument that women should be limited to teaching women's studies and that African Americans should be limited to teaching courses related to African-American culture. White American men, then, would be the only ones qualified to teach courses such as American history, political science, economics, American public address, etc. The basic argument here seems to be one that says know about yourself and nothing (or no one) else. (2) My understanding of a humanistic education is that one should be able to engage in self-reflexive critique of one's own culture and be enabled to engage in cross-cultural dialogue--to understand other people, other value systems and other political systems. (The issues are, of course, much more complex but I'm trying to make this a fairly short message.) The concentration on self-study and self-expertise may allow the first goal (but also may lead to overt indoctrination rather than critique), but seems to preclude the latter entirely. If we can't expect faculty to understand and teach from different perspectives, how can we ask students to engage in cross-cultural study and analysis? Susan Fillippeli FLIPPER@UAHVAX1 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jun 91 12:54:39 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Claire Pedretti Subject: Re: according to whom revisited In-Reply-To: <9106071554.AA15756@mace.cc.purdue.edu>; from "eric crump" at Jun 7, 91 10:06 am Eric writes: >I'm not going to post a full response here. It would be too long, but >I as long as I'm on the subject of squelching debate, I would like to >comment on Bronwyn's interesting introduction to a note posted 5 June. >"I find it rather difficult to reply to this message...(because) the >author of that message is speaking in terms that nearly silence me." >Differences of opinion and interpretation aside (I'll save those for >another note), I would like to challenge the assertion that I could >possibly silence anyone on this list. Word do matter, as Pamela >noted. However, in this medium and in the context of this list and >this discussion, the power of any individual to silence another is >significantly reduced. The only person would could silence Bronwyn >is Bronwyn. Yes, it is *difficult* to repond to a message that >you strongly disagree with to the point of being exasperated, but >we all face the challenge of shaping our discourse in an emotion >context. Emotion can impede, but should not stop us from continuing >the conversation. I suppose my response is in the realm of "interpretation," but here goes. There is a silence beyond not speaking [writing]. It is certainly more than dealing with an emotional context. It is having all the arguments one would make discounted before making them. It is knowing that even though one speaks [writes] one will not be heard [understood or heeded]. Claire Pedretti vva@mace.cc.purdue.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jun 91 15:42:55 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Bronwyn Subject: Re: according to whom revisited In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 7 Jun 91 12:54:39 EST from First, I'd like to thank Claire for understanding my sense of being silenced perfectly; secondly I'd like to say to Eric that, yes, I acknowledge that Bronwyn must be complicit in the silencing of Bronwyn. I call that complicity "patriarchal socialization"; the traditional expectations of women that are within me, indeed a part of me. For women, such socialization has inevitably involved a turning against oneself to serve the desires of the other. Including the other's speech, language, etc. However, I don't translate this into a total assumption of responsibility on my part. Whichever "other" I'm talking to (as long as this is a dialogue) also has responsibility for his/her terms; and when those terms systematically (though perhaps not consciously) exclude my experien ces,or redefine them in ways that makes it extremely difficult to get my point across the experience becomes one of silence or oppression. I'd also like to put my two cents in about men teaching women's studies. I am afraid I'm of the point of view that men are positioned differently than women in culture ( how "essential" this difference is, I haven't resolved). Therefore, they are obviously positioned differently with regard to women's studies. As a student, I would have no problem with a male/female team teaching "Women's Studies"--the difference in perspective might be interesting. However, when there is only the male perspective of such issues being taught, I think it becomes, unintentionally (and this is NOT meant to be an attack against these male professors, who are obviously dedicated and sincere proponents of feminism) a gesture of co-option. However, this does not mean that certain courses, such as "The Sociology of Sex Roles" or other "Gender Studies" type courses which may fall under the category of Women's Studies could not be taught by men. It simply means that the core course of Women's Studies should properly be taught by a woman, since Women's Studies is (all post- structuralist shenanigans aside) about women. I don't think this is such a difficult point to see. And I don't think acknowledging difference need be narrow minded. After all, the original point of including such categories as "Women's Studies" "African American Studies" and the like was in order to affirm DIFFERENCES of experience. That cultural gesture was based on the assumption that people positioned differently in society had different perceptions and experiences from the cultural norm. The intent, as I understand it, was to honor diversity within the framework of the university, so that students could learn from the greatest variety of teachers the greatest variety of perspectives--not to attempt another "melting pot" where anyone could teach anything because we're all such equal individuals. It disturbs me that every time anyone attempts to honor a "different" minority view or experience, there is an onslaught of cultural guilt--a sense that the minority person is insulting or attacking persons not of their minority. Bronwyn-- University of Florida ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jun 91 16:01:20 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Elliott Parker <3ZLUFUR@CMUVM.BITNET> Subject: Women in Singapore media research Several years ago in Singapore, I compiled data on how women were portrayed in English and vernacular newspapers. I wrote it up for the place I was attached to, but they decided not to use it because that was the year two women were elected to Parliament (out of several hundred men) and thus the study was no longer of interest. (?) I have now found some place else that wants to publish it and need to update it. The question: Does anybody on this list know of other work in the last 2-3 years that deals specifically with how women are portrayed in the newspaper photographs or media in Singapore? Or in general, how women are pictured in non-English newspapers? I have checked the normal places, like Dialog, D/Jones News Retrival, ERIC, etc., but I have found much material (well, not a lot :-) ) in small, out-of-the-way places that are not indexed anywhere. Any pointers appreciated. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Elliott Parker BITNET: 3ZLUFUR@CMUVM Journalism Dept. Internet: eparker@well.sf.ca.us Central Michigan University Compuserve: 70701,520 Mt. Pleasant, MI 48859 USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jun 91 22:45:00 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: BCJ@PSUVM.BITNET Subject: Re: men teaching women studies In-Reply-To: PTB101 AT URIACC.BITNET -- Fri, 7 Jun 91 12:25:26 EDT Florence Ginzburg asks "Why is there no people of color there to teach those classes?" I have two answers. First, we cannot afford them. On the few occasions we have new faculty openings, our budget does not reach far enough to attract the very few, highly marketable, qualified minority academics. Actually, at my campus, most of the professional people of colour are engineers, mathematicians, and physicists from India and Asia. But I think the market explanation is a side issue. I would like to make one thing clear: the ideal university hires the most qualified candidate for every field. Women and members of racial and ethnic minorities belong in the university on the basis of their talents, not their Equal Employment category. The vital issue in terms of the professoriate is seeing more and more women & minorities in *every* field. There is no reason to expect them to gravitate toward Women's Studies or Minority (or "Other Culture") Studies. Narrowminded views may produce a ghetto, or a place where the essential issues and ideas such programs should generate can be contained. Here is another analogue: one of the best teachers I had as an undergraduate was my Introduction to World Religions teacher. Did she have to be a Hindu to teach Hinduism (she was, but she was a dynamite teacher of Buddhism, Taoism, and Islam, too)? Back to the initial discussion. Beware of the notion that the problem we're discussing is solved by saying Universities should hire women to teach women's studies. It obfuscates the truth that universities should hire women to teach *everything* they can teach. Beware also of the notion that only direct experience counts. If we were to disallow analytical, suppositious, inferential, imaginary, empathetic discourse, then we lose History, Philosophy, Literature, and the inductive sciences (which ultimately require inference, too). Maybe I'm overreacting. Probably. I'm tired and not a well person. But I find some of the postings about this issue a bit simplistic, a bit narrow, and sometimes a little too close to smugness for comfort. Something too much of this. I did not sign up for this list to get another flame war started. I'll lurk quietly for a while, I promise. Goodnight, & all best wishes... Kevin Berland (Penn State &c. &c.) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jun 91 00:17:13 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Florence Ginsburg Subject: Re: men teaching women studies In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 7 Jun 91 22:45:00 EDT from If you are going to address my posting, at least spell my name correctly. It is Florence Ginsburg, not Florence Ginzburg. Thank you in advance. As far as comparing courses such as political science, american history, etc., I don't see them following a linear discussion when discussing such subjects as women studies and or black studies. I think that this would make an interesting study, i.e., to see how students feel about taking such courses with different instructors. As far as my thinking being narrow minded, I think that that perception is in the eye of the beholder! I don't believe that there aren't qualified individuals to teach such topics, and I would even venture to say 'some' women wouldn't be as qualified but when teaching such subjects I think there has to be a 'political' component. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jun 91 06:21:04 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: MIKE Subject: Re: men teaching women studies The course I currently conduct, Women in Management, is certainly marginal to "Women's Studies" but perhaps some of the experiences from this are relevant to this discussion. Team-teaching, with a male and female (Jean Ramsey), has seemed to work significantly better than any single individual. "Better" in the sense of *seeming* to enlarge the capacity for; "pattern recognition," repertoire of responses, understanding, coping ability, etc. of the participants ... whether male or female. I suspect in virtually all institutions today this pairing will only happen with one of the two being a volunteer. Many law schools spend some time with the concept ... "thoughtful minds may differ" ... this seems to be very difficult for most of our students to assimilate (seems beyond some of the participants on this conference, as well.) With discussions in class started with fairly extreme viewpoints, expressed rationally, the students respond very nicely (from an educator viewpoint) and by the end of the term almost nobody asks "well, what's the right answer." (And that's a shift from almost everybody at the start.) Perhaps this type of course, focused toward helping women to succeed (or not fail,) is sufficiently different from more "main line" women's studies courses to make this not important, but a male does have some significant advantages, in addition to the obvious disadvantages. I can go into the "steam room" at the local YMCA (where the power brokers really work,) listen and even participate in the discussions as to why "Susan" isn't going to make it. This is a excellent source for identifying "self-defeating" behaviors and one that just isn't available to a female. Whether this is "unfair" or not just isn't very relevant in the short run (or in helping Susan.) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jun 91 06:22:55 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: MIKE Subject: Re: men teaching women studies Sorry, I forgot identification ... posting re "women in Management" course Mike Keenan keenan@gw.wmich.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jun 91 10:10:00 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: BCJ@PSUVM.BITNET Subject: Women's Studies in Bulgaria A colleague at Penn State, J. Van Herik (not on email as yet), recently met some Bulgarian feminists at an international conference, who told her there is a crying need for English books at their program. She is soliciting contributions of English books (literature, women's studies, &c.). The addresses are: Krilka Stavreva Maria Pipeva Department of Modern Languages Department of English University of Sofia University of Sofia 15 Rouski Blvd. 15 Rouski Blvd. 1000 Sofia 1000 Sofia Bulgaria Bulgaria Thank you for your consideration. Kevin Berland ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jun 91 08:34:56 CDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: eric crump Subject: according to whom re-revisited (Fair warning: Long, somewhat rambling note to follow. Hope you'll bear with me) I was going to write another rebuttal to the silencing accusation (probably still will, but later) because Claire's support for Bronwyn's claim that I had nearly silenced her set me off, gnashing my teeth, rattling my computer, etc. Why are these women trying to duck responsibility for their own voices, I wondered. Why would they *choose* silence, then blame *me* for it? First, and I've been meaning to write about this for a day or two, I think Bronwyn, Claire and others have misinterpreted my original note. In fact, it is rather interesting, and perhaps worth pondering further, to note the discrepancy between their understanding and mine of the very same words. I reread the note a couple of times and I still think it says fairly well what I intended it to say: if this social system is going to be labeled as misogynist, why? How was that characterization arrived at and by whom? I realize it is taken for granted these days, at least in academia. All enlightened folk know it to be a fact that traditional Western social conventions are inherently oppressive to everyone but middle and upper class white males. But if it is fair to challenge Western values, I figured it was fair to challenge the new order. If it is significantly better than the previous social order, its defense ought to be easy. All I asked for was some evidence to support the new regime. Several responses indicated a very different reading of my questions. Bronwyn said the message called for "the unreality of women's oppression and demand for proof of such." She went on to say that I had trivialized any evidence she might have offered in response to my query, thereby paralyzing her as a participant in the discussion. Sharon Anthony said the discussion questioned "whether the oppression of women is 'real' in this day and age" and added, "I find it difficult to believe that the existence of sexism is in question. I thought we had some sort of concensus as social scientists that we do live in a sexist and racist society..." Indeed. And it may surprise everyone when I say that I agree with that completely. Try as I might, I cannot find anything in my note that questions the existence of sexism. I asked how society has been determined to be misogynist. Not the same thing at all. Misogyny is, as I understand it, the hatred of women. Inasmuch as hatred is inherently oppressive to the receiver of it, misogyny engenders oppression of women. But I think oppression comes in many shapes and colors, misogyny being only one very extreme type. To equate misogyny and oppression is to deny the complexity and pervasiveness of the latter and to inflate the former beyond its bounds. In my humble opinion. In addition to what I perceive as a misreading of my question, I have also disagree with the claim that my words nearly silenced any possible answer. Bronwyn has acknowledged some complicity in her level of participation in the conversation, for which I think she should be congratulated, but I still want to comment on the original claim since it has come up often, here and on other lists. What I see as an effective rhetorical strategy, that is anticipating an opponents response to one's argument and refuting it in advance, is turned into an act of oppression. However, the rhetorical ploy presupposes a worthy opponent who has at his or her disposal like tools, who can in fact devise methods of responding to one's anticipatory refutation. In other words, I would assume that if Bronwyn, or anyone, disagreed with my characterization of her possible responses, she would attempt to undermine or discredit my points (which she did, actually, and I have no problem with that) not claim that she was incapable of responding to them. I see that as a cop out, throwing the game, giving up. My question, after all, invited responses. Nothing in my words indicated an intention to silence anyone. Which brings us back to interpretation discrepancies. Bronwyn and others perceived my comments as efforts to trivialize the oppression of women. I said I assumed (admittedly a risky endeavor) that Pamela's attitude, which caused her to characterize society as misogynist, was perhaps informed by personal trauma. I realize I have no business making such assumptions, but I did based on my experience with women who are particularly antagonistic toward the current (previous?) social system. Most, maybe all, have suffered at the hands of violent men and tend to extrapolate that society (which is perceived as controlled by men) hates women. Who can blame them? Not me. And I am not surprised that no evidence to the contrary can convince them to change their minds. Understandable. I once had this exchange with a very intelligent, creative, very bitter lesbian (nearly verbatim. I remember it well): She: "Nothing you can say will convince me that society is not misogynist." Me: "Nothing you can say will convince it me that it is." Of course, in the heat of the moment, we both probably overstated our dogmatism. At least I think I'm more open to discussing the matter, even though my basic position has not changed dramatically (I did, after all, ask for input from this list on the matter). Probably, though, we were both right, to a degree. Janet Fields and Betty Glass offered (actually in response to a Roy Flanagan note) the kind of particulars I was asking for. They noted cases of abuse and brutality, situations perpetuated by ignorance. That's good evidence that society is misogynist. Roy offers solid arguments that society has changed, that things are much better, that--I conclude--society is not misogynist. We are all right, or maybe we all are wrong. The labels may be innappropriate. Can we accurately characterize something as vast as a society with a single word? There are some people who are alcoholics. Does that mean society is alcoholic? Maybe so. What about those people who are sober? Do we have to do a complete statistical analysis to come up with appropriate labels, or shall we trust that our own experiences are universal enough to apply? Hmmm. And to those who insist that men are fully responsible for the evils this social system commits, I have this analogy: suppose you have a school of guppies swimming around in the ocean. Along comes a tidal wave that drives them before it. They are leading the tidal wave to land, but they are far from in control of it. In other words, I think women give men more credit than they deserve for being powerful enough to manipulate a society, and give themselves too little credit for their ability to influence it. We all have our little parts to play, our degree of responsibity, but society is a cummulative thing, a tidal wave. I have one more observation to make and then I'll shut up for a while. Requires a bit of digression first (sorry). An acquaintance of mine called last night to offer me some unused tickets to the Cardinals game tonight (good seats, too, but I can't go. Rats.). Hearing his voice reminded me that several months ago I wanted to rip his lungs out (only momentarily--there was no real danger). Just a couple of weeks before our first baby was born he--out of the blue--said to me, "Don't forget, you don't own your child. It's an autonomous person." Hard to disagree with, now that I think about it, but at the time I resented this nerdy, terminal bachelor telling me--an expectant, well-versed, almost-father--how to treat children. The nerve. I realize now that I didn't think he was qualified to give me advice on the subject. I didn't think his opinion counted because he had never been an expectant father, about to assume the tremendous responsility of caring for a new person. What the hell did he know? Am I on to something here? Is that at least roughly how some of you women feel when men try to discuss oppression? How should *he* know? He's a *man.* I think I may understand that reaction better, now that I've recalled my reaction to my well-intentioned acquaintance. I'm not sure my response to him (I didn't actually confront him with my feelings, I should add, but only brushed him off with a "Whatever you say, Andrew," or something) was very fair. Now that I think about it, I really didn't listen to what he said, but judged his words based on who he was. He had a good point, after all, and for all I know had some valid, indirect experience with parenting. I wonder if some of the responses to my original note were influenced by similar emotional interference (although I do not want to dismiss the possibility--or should I say probability?--that some of you simply disagree with my views). Even if that's the case, I know there may not be much to be done about it. For instance, my father will not speak to a woman whose husband once was his best friend. The woman presumed to tell him what was wrong with salesmen in general. My father was a salesman. He never forgave her for taking a stand he couldn't agree with about a subject he felt she was unqualified to be judgmental about, something that was very important to him. These things happen. No solution comes to mind. One thing I'm fairly certain about, though: silencing and accusations of silencing are not steps in the right direction. We won't learn much about each other that way. The continuation of the conversation is essential. I know I learn more about the way women see things and about the wrongs they've suffered with every exhange, even antagonistic exchanges. I've grown more and more sympathetic to the plight of women in this society. I guess the more I learn about sexist oppression of women, the more I want to contribute to the fight against sexism and that includes achieving equal consideration for men. Being the guppies in this tidal wave has not excluded us from the effects of oppression, albeit in different forms than that suffered by women. But, now I'm getting into a topic that has no end. I promised to stop. I'll stop. Thanks to those who have read this whole diatribe. Eric Crump lceric@umcvmb ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jun 91 11:19:57 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Florence Ginsburg Subject: Re: according to whom re-revisited In-Reply-To: Message of Sat, 8 Jun 91 08:34:56 CDT from I think that Eric's posting can be used as an example of the different perspectives that Women and Men have, and therefore explains why women and other minorities should teach such courses. How Susan Fillippeli can conclude that if that is so, then only men can teach economics, political science, etc., (in my opinion) doesn't follow a linear discussion. I think Bronwyn's comments about the different positionings of women and men, should help for us to see how I arrive at such a perspective. Mike wrote about team-teaching, I think that this is fine, except I wonder who (or is it whom) will end up as the volunteer? This might be germaine to my point. No one made the assumption that one of a different culture could not understand anothers', but who is better qualified to explore the full ramifications. While reading all the postings, it reminded be of the feeling that I had after seeing the Dustin Hoffman movie, "Tootsie". I have run out of space so I will explain my feelings about this movie in another posting. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jun 91 11:35:05 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Florence Ginsburg Subject: Re: according to whom re-revisited In-Reply-To: Message of Sat, 8 Jun 91 08:34:56 CDT from In the movie "Tootsie" I came away with the feeling that in some ways when the actors were faced with a competitive existence for work, the role of a woman would go to a man. This is ironic! In other words even a man would get the role that was meant for a woman said much to me. I think this is what all the hoopla was about in the play called Miss Saigon. I think that when Kevin says that 'there isn't enough money in the budget to hire minorities, is also the point. So, had did it end up like this, is the point! Kevin also states that we should beware of the notion that direct experience counts. No, but it goes much deeper than that! I believe that a humanistic education is legitimate, but I don't think we have reached that point in time. I hope that I have been able to convey this point! I suspect that some women will understand this, and if the men do I be happy that things-are-a-changin! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jun 91 11:52:45 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Karen Kay Subject: according to whom re-revisited In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of SAT 08 JUN 1991 09:34:56 EDT Eric-- About silencing behaviors. I heard an interview this morning on NPR w/ the woman brain surgeon from Stanford who provided the perfect example: there she'd be, operating on someone's brain, and one of her colleagues would come in the operating room and ask "How's it going, honey?" That's pretty silencing. Now, I don't mean to suggest that you did anything like that... About misogyny--my Webster's defines it ashatred of women, but then defines hatred as strong dislike or ill will. And I think our society is filled with this. This woman from Stanford also mentioned that when she disagrees with her colleagues over technical matters she is characterized as being difficul t because of her period or PMS. I would suspect that there's not a woman on this list who hasn't had that happen to them. I don't share all of Bronwyn's views, but I understand how they were shaped. I get a lot of this kind of shit and I'm not even in women's studies. Karen > I was going to write another rebuttal to the silencing accusation > (probably still will, but later) because Claire's support for > Bronwyn's claim that I had nearly silenced her set me off, gnashing > my teeth, rattling my computer, etc. Why are these women trying > to duck responsibility for their own voices, I wondered. Why would > they *choose* silence, then blame *me* for it? > > First, and I've been meaning to write about this for a day or two, > I think Bronwyn, Claire and others have misinterpreted my original > note. In fact, it is rather interesting, and perhaps worth pondering > further, to note the discrepancy between their understanding and mine of > the very same words. I reread the note a couple of times and I still > think it says fairly well what I intended it to say: if this social > system is going to be labeled as misogynist, why? How was that > characterization arrived at and by whom? I realize it is taken > for granted these days, at least in academia. All enlightened folk > know it to be a fact that traditional Western social conventions are > inherently oppressive to everyone but middle and upper class white > males. But if it is fair to challenge Western values, I figured it > was fair to challenge the new order. If it is significantly better > than the previous social order, its defense ought to be easy. All > I asked for was some evidence to support the new regime. > > Several responses indicated a very different reading of my questions. > Bronwyn said the message called for "the unreality of women's oppression > and demand for proof of such." She went on to say that I had trivialized > any evidence she might have offered in response to my query, thereby > paralyzing her as a participant in the discussion. Sharon Anthony > said the discussion questioned "whether the oppression of women is > 'real' in this day and age" and added, "I find it difficult to believe > that the existence of sexism is in question. I thought we had some > sort of concensus as social scientists that we do live in a sexist > and racist society..." > > Indeed. And it may surprise everyone when I say that I agree with > that completely. Try as I might, I cannot find anything in my > note that questions the existence of sexism. I asked how society > has been determined to be misogynist. Not the same thing at all. > Misogyny is, as I understand it, the hatred of women. Inasmuch > as hatred is inherently oppressive to the receiver of it, misogyny > engenders oppression of women. But I think oppression comes in > many shapes and colors, misogyny being only one very extreme > type. To equate misogyny and oppression is to deny the complexity > and pervasiveness of the latter and to inflate the former beyond > its bounds. In my humble opinion. > > In addition to what I perceive as a misreading of my question, I > have also disagree with the claim that my words nearly silenced > any possible answer. Bronwyn has acknowledged some complicity in > her level of participation in the conversation, for which I think > she should be congratulated, but I still want to comment on the > original claim since it has come up often, here and on other lists. > > What I see as an effective rhetorical strategy, that is anticipating > an opponents response to one's argument and refuting it in advance, > is turned into an act of oppression. However, the rhetorical > ploy presupposes a worthy opponent who has at his or her disposal > like tools, who can in fact devise methods of responding to one's > anticipatory refutation. In other words, I would assume that if > Bronwyn, or anyone, disagreed with my characterization of her > possible responses, she would attempt to undermine or discredit > my points (which she did, actually, and I have no problem with that) > not claim that she was incapable of responding to them. I see that > as a cop out, throwing the game, giving up. My question, after all, > invited responses. Nothing in my words indicated an intention to > silence anyone. > > Which brings us back to interpretation discrepancies. Bronwyn and > others perceived my comments as efforts to trivialize the oppression > of women. I said I assumed (admittedly a risky endeavor) that Pamela's > attitude, which caused her to characterize society as misogynist, was > perhaps informed by personal trauma. I realize I have no business > making such assumptions, but I did based on my experience with women > who are particularly antagonistic toward the current (previous?) > social system. Most, maybe all, have suffered at the hands of violent > men and tend to extrapolate that society (which is perceived as > controlled by men) hates women. Who can blame them? Not me. And I > am not surprised that no evidence to the contrary can convince them > to change their minds. Understandable. > > I once had this exchange with a very intelligent, creative, very bitter > lesbian (nearly verbatim. I remember it well): > She: "Nothing you can say will convince me that society is not misogynist." > Me: "Nothing you can say will convince it me that it is." > Of course, in the heat of the moment, we both probably overstated our > dogmatism. At least I think I'm more open to discussing the matter, even > though my basic position has not changed dramatically (I did, after all, > ask for input from this list on the matter). Probably, though, we were > both right, to a degree. > > Janet Fields and Betty Glass offered (actually in response to a Roy > Flanagan note) the kind of particulars I was asking for. They noted > cases of abuse and brutality, situations perpetuated by ignorance. > That's good evidence that society is misogynist. Roy offers solid > arguments that society has changed, that things are much better, > that--I conclude--society is not misogynist. We are all right, > or maybe we all are wrong. The labels may be innappropriate. Can > we accurately characterize something as vast as a society with > a single word? There are some people who are alcoholics. Does that > mean society is alcoholic? Maybe so. What about those people who > are sober? Do we have to do a complete statistical analysis to > come up with appropriate labels, or shall we trust that our > own experiences are universal enough to apply? Hmmm. > > And to those who insist that men are fully responsible for the > evils this social system commits, I have this analogy: suppose > you have a school of guppies swimming around in the ocean. Along > comes a tidal wave that drives them before it. They are leading > the tidal wave to land, but they are far from in control of it. > In other words, I think women give men more credit than they > deserve for being powerful enough to manipulate a society, and > give themselves too little credit for their ability to influence > it. We all have our little parts to play, our degree of responsibity, > but society is a cummulative thing, a tidal wave. > > I have one more observation to make and then I'll shut up for a while. > Requires a bit of digression first (sorry). > > An acquaintance of mine called last night to offer me some unused > tickets to the Cardinals game tonight (good seats, too, but I can't > go. Rats.). Hearing his voice reminded me that several months ago > I wanted to rip his lungs out (only momentarily--there was no real danger). > Just a couple of weeks before our first baby was born he--out of the > blue--said to me, "Don't forget, you don't own your child. It's an > autonomous person." Hard to disagree with, now that I think about it, but > at the time I resented this nerdy, terminal bachelor telling me--an > expectant, well-versed, almost-father--how to treat children. The > nerve. I realize now that I didn't think he was qualified to give > me advice on the subject. I didn't think his opinion counted because > he had never been an expectant father, about to assume the tremendous > responsility of caring for a new person. What the hell did he know? > > Am I on to something here? Is that at least roughly how some of you women > feel when men try to discuss oppression? How should *he* know? He's a > *man.* I think I may understand that reaction better, now that I've > recalled my reaction to my well-intentioned acquaintance. I'm not sure > my response to him (I didn't actually confront him with my feelings, I > should add, but only brushed him off with a "Whatever you say, Andrew," or > something) was very fair. Now that I think about it, I really didn't > listen to what he said, but judged his words based on who he was. He had > a good point, after all, and for all I know had some valid, indirect > experience with parenting. > > I wonder if some of the responses to my original note were influenced > by similar emotional interference (although I do not want to dismiss > the possibility--or should I say probability?--that some of you simply > disagree with my views). Even if that's the case, I know there may not > be much to be done about it. For instance, my father will not speak to > a woman whose husband once was his best friend. The woman presumed to > tell him what was wrong with salesmen in general. My father was a > salesman. He never forgave her for taking a stand he couldn't agree with > about a subject he felt she was unqualified to be judgmental about, > something that was very important to him. > > These things happen. No solution comes to mind. One thing I'm fairly > certain about, though: silencing and accusations of silencing are > not steps in the right direction. We won't learn much about each > other that way. The continuation of the conversation is essential. > > I know I learn more about the way women see things and about the > wrongs they've suffered with every exhange, even antagonistic > exchanges. I've grown more and more sympathetic to the plight of > women in this society. I guess the more I learn about sexist oppression > of women, the more I want to contribute to the fight against sexism > and that includes achieving equal consideration for men. Being the > guppies in this tidal wave has not excluded us from the effects of > oppression, albeit in different forms than that suffered by women. > But, now I'm getting into a topic that has no end. I promised to > stop. I'll stop. > > Thanks to those who have read this whole diatribe. > Eric Crump > lceric@umcvmb ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jun 91 11:59:50 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Karen Kay Subject: Re: according to whom re-revisited In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of SAT 08 JUN 1991 11:19:57 EDT > No one > made the assumption that one of a different culture could not understand > anothers', but who is better qualified to explore the full ramifications. This is an interesting point. I teach Japanese language, and when I can , Japanese culture. I am very much a non-native speaker, but I consider my area to be very much in the area of INTERPRETATION--I am better able to help American students gain understanding of Japanese culture because I had to go through the process myself. I am sometimes forced todefend my non-native speaker status. I am very lucky to be able to have native speakers to team teach with--one viewpoint is not enough. I can't remember who teaches the course on Women in Business, but for the same reason, I think it totally appropriate that a man teach it-- after all, women are going to have to survive in the male world of busi- ness. (I think it's sad that so many women have had to go into business for themselves--too bad academics don't really have the same options.) Karen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jun 91 15:06:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: THOMAS BRIDGES Subject: Gender Wars I suppose it's inevitable that a list like this will have some of the usual gender war stuff--women asserting their victimization by men or the system, men expressing their hurt and amazement at such accusations as well as their own victimization, etc. etc. But frankly, by now I think I've heard just about every possible variation on these themes. On the other hand, I would love to hear some substantive discussion about what is currently going on in women's studies by people working in various fields. I hope that the gender war stuff will not completely drive out the academic stuff. Just expressing my own little humble wishes and hopes. Tom Bridges bridges@apollo.montclair.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jun 91 17:09:00 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: KIRSHENBLATT@NYUACF.BITNET Subject: RE: according to whom re-revisited Can someone plz enlighten me on the "silencing" business? Why is "silence," "si lencing," etc. so appealing as a way of describing (accounting for?) interaction s where women feel poorly done by? Thx, BKG ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jun 91 16:36:00 IST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Cheryl Tallan Subject: book *New Book* Jewish Women in Historical Perspective, edited by Judith R. Baskin of SUNY Albany. Wayne State University Press, Detroit. 1. "Portrayals of Women in the Hebrew Bible," by Susan Niditch 2. "Jewish Women in the Diaspora World of Late Antiquity," by Ross R. Kraemer 3. "The Image and Status of Women in Classical Rabbinic Judaism," by Judith Romney Wegner 4. "Jewish Women in the Middle Ages," by Judith R. Baskin 5. "Sephardi Women in the Medieval and Early Modern Periods," by Renee Levine Melammed 6. "Italian Jewish Women," by Howard Adelman 7. "Prayers in Yiddish and the Religious World of Ashkenazic Women," by Chava Weissler 8. "Emancipation through Intermarriage in Old Berlin," by Deborah Hertz 9. "Tradition and Transition: Jewish Women in Imperial Germany," by Marion A. Kaplan 10. "Gender and the Immigrant Jewish Experience in the United States," by Paula Hyman 11. "Women and the Holocaust: A Reconsideration of Research," by Joan Ringelheim 12. "Spiritual Expressions: Jewish Women's Religious Lives in the Twentieth-Century United States," by Ellen M. Umansky For further information contact, Wayne State University Press The Leonard N. Simons Building 5959 Woodward Avenue Detroit, Michigan 48202 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 91 00:00:00 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: KIRSHENBLATT@NYUACF.BITNET Subject: RE: book Order special issue on Jewish women (Jewish Folklore and Ethnology Review v. 12, No. 102, 1990) $12.00, from Shalom Staub, 3489 Green St., Harrisburg, PA 17110. Edited by Maurie Sachs. Includes research reports, syllabi, articles, resources, reviews.BKG ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 91 01:10:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Arnie Kahn Subject: _Regiment of Women_ Has anyone used Thomas Berger's _Regiment of Women_ to discuss the arbitrariness of gender roles in Women's Studies? I must admit I'm only 1/3 of the way through the novel, but I think it looks like an interesting tool. Arnie ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jun 91 17:24:46 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Karen Kay Subject: RE: according to whom re-revisited In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of SAT 08 JUN 1991 17:09:00 EDT > Can someone plz enlighten me on the "silencing" business? Why is "silence," " > lencing," etc. so appealing as a way of describing (accounting for?) interacti > s where women feel poorly done by? Thx, BKG It ISN'T that women feel poorly done by! That's just the point--if it were just a matter of good vs. poor arguments, that would be okay. But there is no way to respond to comments that make me feel 'silenced'. When my colleagues find me a strident bitch because I disagree with them over professional matters, there really is no response. I can only fulfill their expectations of stridency. Karen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 91 09:01:00 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Joan Korenman Subject: Books for Women's Studies Courses Earlier today, Arnie Kahn said: > Has anyone used Thomas Berger's _Regiment of Women_ to discuss > the arbitrariness of gender roles in Women's Studies? I must admit > I'm only 1/3 of the way through the novel, but I think it looks like > an interesting tool. I haven't read Berger's book (though perhaps now I will), but I'd like to offer another suggestion. Marge Piercy's 1976 novel _Woman on the Edge of Time_ raises a vast array of feminist issues--gender roles, inclusive language, family structure, violence, reproductive and other technologies, societal organization, etc.--in a rather engaging and imaginative way. Most of the students in my "Perspectives on Women in Literature" course this semester were very enthusiastic about the book. I could easily imagine using it, too, in an Intro to Women's Studies course, though its length (the Fawcett paperback has 381 pages) might be a problem there. Joan Korenman Internet: korenman@umbc2.umbc.edu Bitnet: korenman@umbc ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 91 09:19:02 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2 From: "Leonard P. Hirsch" Subject: Books for Women's Studies Courses In-Reply-To: note of 06/10/91 09:15 From: Leonard P. Hirsch Office of International Relations/Q-3123 (202) 357-4788 Another book that is engaging is Gerd Brandenberg's (sp?) _Egalia's Daughters. +-----------------------------------------------------+ | Leonard Hirsch (202) 357-4788/FAX (202)786-2557 | | Smithsonian Institution BITNET INCEM005@SIVM | +-----------------------------------------------------+ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 91 09:41:11 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Diane Glazener In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 6 Jun 91 15:08:10 CDT from In reply to Cliff Staples: Male instructors for women's studies.... I have had several upper level English courses taught by my advisor (a male) which confront the unseen borders/edges/margins around and between gender, race , class, and idealogies. So, whenever he teaches a course all the students get a marvelous dose of feminist scholarship. By feminist scholarship *I* mean ways of looking at extrapolative, contemporary, or post-modern writings by men and by women which confront, examine, and attempt to provoke thought about how and why the works were written. (As well as how and why the reader processess t he works in a particular way.) But, to get back to the male-instuctor-for-women's-studies: I don't think it's an issue unless made into one. Often, I've found, that this brings a fresh perspective to the courses. Diane Glazener (GLAZE@VTVM2.bitnet) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 91 10:04:34 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: MIKE Subject: RE: according to whom re-revisited Karen ... re "silencing" ... Deborah Tannen in "You just don't understand" (an *excellent* book for everyone) has some comments about this phenom. and why men don't understand the problem. Mike Keenan keenan@gw.wmich.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 91 10:14:13 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "Carolyn M. Kotlas" Subject: Re: reading suggestions Although I am not currently involved with teaching women's studies (my last formal efforts were in an team-led anthropology seminar in 1971), I appreciate the reading suggestions for novels that have been posted here recently. I hope more will be suggested. To keep the ball rolling, here are two books I've recently read that provide some provocative and entertaining perspectives on women's lives and their conflicts with society, men, and other women: Study in lilac by Oliver, Maria-Antonia. Seattle : Seal Press, c1987. (detective novel whose protagonist is a contemporary Spanish woman) Puffball by Weldon, Fay. London : Hodder and Stoughton, c1980. (themes of pregnancy and witchcraft in contemporary rural England) -carolyn -- Carolyn Kotlas (kotlas@uncecs.edu or kotlas@ecsvax.bitnet) UNC Ed. Comp. Serv., POB 12035, Res. Triangle Pk., NC 27709 919/549-0671 "Serving the 16 campuses of The University of North Carolina system" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 91 10:18:23 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Diane Glazener Subject: RE: according to whom re-revisited In-Reply-To: Message of Sat, 8 Jun 91 17:09:00 EDT from On the matter of silence....There is an essay (forgive the ramble but I don't have the book at hand, I'll double check tonite) by Tillie Olsen, "On Silence" which might explain the entire discussion for both genders. :-) If my memory wasn't right on this I'll re-post tomorrow...... Diane Glazener ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 91 09:29:00 CDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Sue Searing Subject: Re: RE: To the person inquiring about women in librarianship, and an organizing scheme for research... My mail system does not supply the name and email address of the individual sending a message on the Women's Studies List. Could you please get in touch with me individually, via email (Searing@vms.macc.wisc.edu) or paper mail (112A Memorial Library, 728 State St., Madison, WI 53706)? I have a friend doing a dissertation in this field (narrower than your research agenda, of course) who might have some ideas and would surely like to know what your thinking is! Thank you. Susan E. Searing, Women's Studies Librarian, University of Wisconsin ========================================================================= Date: MON, 10 JUN 91 11:37:41 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: RTFC507@UTXVM.BITNET Subject: Silence See first chapter in Belenky et al's _Women's Ways of Knowing_ for a good introduction to silence. Steve Carr UT-Austin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 91 11:54:00 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Joan Korenman Subject: signed postings A short time ago, Sue Searing noted: > My mail system does not supply the name and email address of the individual > sending a message on the Women's Studies List. Last week, Alan Acock made a similar observation about his system and went on to suggest that we all include our name and e-mail address at the end of all postings to this list. I'd like to second that suggestion. Clearly, a number of people would benefit. Joan Korenman Internet: korenman@umbc2.umbc.edu Bitnet: korenman@umbc ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 91 13:18:39 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: P_MURPHY@UNHH.UNH.EDU Subject: women & crime I will be teaching courses on the American Criminal Justice system & Criminology and am looking for supplemental texts for students that focus on women. I am particularly interested in novels. I will be using the messerschmidt & Beirn Crim text and am still searching for a good Am Crim Justice text. Thanks a good Am Crim Justice text. Thanks Pat Murphy (internet: P_murphy @ unhh.unh.edu) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 91 13:16:52 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Bronwyn In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 7 Jun 91 10:25:00 CDT from A question for the woman who is doing the research agenda on women in library professions--is this going to be a study of the history of women in librariansh ip, a study of what's going on now, or a combination of the two? Are you taking a sociological, data gathering approach, or---what? Just wondering (and interested!) I ask this because, if you're not simply doing a historical study, you might find it worthwhile (forgive me if this seems overly obvious) talking to women in the field. I myself have worked in libraries for several years ( though not at the professional level) and I'd be extremely interested to know what these women think of themselves, their profession, etc. Bronwyn University of Florida ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 91 19:04:48 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Spike Subject: Re: men teaching women studies In-Reply-To: Your MAIL dated Fri, 7 Jun 91 10:29:00 EDT In response to a note from Kevin Berland. One thing that came to mind in reading thru notes on who should teach what types of courses (men teaching women studies... white people teaching black studies...) was how the course would differ based on teacher. There is certainly a perspective that men, and in particular, white men, could not bring to women studies. And what is wrong with teaching courses that examine life experiences. What bettter way for people to really see how oppression exist... by looking at their own experiences, or others. wende ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 91 20:00:14 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Spike Hi... I am again writing on the issue of men teaching women studies. I would like to express one perspective (based on experience)... I had a discussion with my mother several weeks ago on the issue of oppression. And she said something that really struck me. My mother is a cross-cultural trainer and presently does a some work on diveristy issues. Recently she was at a conference and asked by a naitve american man how she (as a white woman) could understand the oppression of other groups. She said that the only oppression she could really understand is that of white women, but could try to understand the oppression thru her children and grandchildren, since one of her daughters is married to a black man (they have 2 children), and thru my experience as a lesbian. The point I was really impressed with was her understanding that she could not *truly* understand the oppression of other oppressed groups. If white men do want to teach women studies I think they need to understand and accept that they can not really understand oppression the way we experience it. So, what does that say about men teaching such courses???? Okay, they can probably present facts of history (as it is written in the books) but they should ackknowledge, and maybe even make a point of it in the course, what perspective they are bringing. wende s pusch ========================================================================= Date: MON, 10 JUN 91 20:27:47 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Anne Pemberton Subject: Re: men teaching women studies Unless I misunderstood, it seems that the reason Wende wants men to NOT teach women's studies courses is so that the professor can "examine life experiences", and thereby "prove" that opression against women exists. If this is so, it would surely then be better that the professor was one who'd had many significantly negative life experiences, rather than one who'd had a jolly equal time with the men in her life. Also, it presumes that the students haven't had such experiences, and must have it drilled into them that women are, indeed, opressed. Maybe I've been lucky, or just sheltered ,-) but I've not been abused by father, either husband, sons, nor male students, friends, colleagues, etc. I've lived no pollyanna life, I've had to work to support sons both during and after a failed marriage, and ever since. I took low paying and hard-work jobs when I had to, and enjoy what I do now. I've been ignored and disagreed with and quarreled with, and walked away from, but never SILENCED. If I am silent, it is because I am thinking of a good answer. I am curious if those who claim to be silenced are all, as some have said, the victims of specific abuse, and whether that has colored their inability to respond when they are not on *The Winning Side* ? Anne Pemberton Wilsons, VA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 91 14:50:32 PDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Betty J Glass Subject: "silencing" One reason "silencing" is significant to me is in the realm of religion. In my childhood, women were not allowed behind the pulpit. While it was okay for women to be Sunday school teachers (reflecting our society's value judgment on both children and women), women were not qualified to address the adult congregation. Things are changing in this regard within some denominations. Other groups still refuse to acknowledge full personhood for females, clinging to scripture written for patriarchal societies of 2000 years ago. An effective silencing technique I experienced in graduate school came about when I was the only female in a Greek class. The Jesuit professor announced that he would be unable to conduct his usual informal gatherings with the class because it would be compromising for me, as the only female. I was very new to campus and had no idea he had get-togethers with his male students. If he had mentioned his problem to me before class, I would have undoubtedly suggested that he go ahead with his social agenda. I could have found other female students to go with me or just foregone the august privilege altogether. Instead, he succeeded in alienating me from the entire class. A room full of guys I didn't know all held me to blame for the lost opportunity of quality time with a prof outside the classroom. I wasn't a feminist back then, but encounters like that verify the existence of misogamy for me. Betty Glass ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 91 21:39:34 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Florence Ginsburg Subject: Re: men teaching women studies In-Reply-To: Message of MON, 10 JUN 91 20:27:47 EDT from Maybe it is because I am tired, but I am not getting your point Anne Pemberton. I do think that Wende (Spike) analogy is, on the other hand, right on the mark. It is obvious that we all have had diverse experiences, but I hope that despite these differences we do agree that women's experience does differ markedly then men's regardless of their sensitivity to the plight of women. On that note I would welcome any and all suggestions on child sexual assault. I am in the process of doing the research on my dissertation. I am hoping to focus it in a developmental perspective on the psychological effects of child sexual assault at different developmental stages. Again, any and all comments, thoughts, etc., would be welcome. Florence Ginsburg PTB101 % IACC ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 91 22:20:51 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Karen Kay Subject: RE: according to whom re-revisited In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of MON 10 JUN 1991 02:04:34 EDT > Karen ... re "silencing" ... Deborah Tannen in "You just don't understand" > (an *excellent* book for everyone) has some comments about this phenom. and > why men don't understand the problem. So, Mike, you gonna share what she says with us?! Or hoard that knowledge... Karen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 91 23:43:00 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: KIRSHENBLATT@NYUACF.BITNET Subject: RE: according to whom re-revisited Karen: I still don't get it--stridency, silence. Sounds like a whole new world .I don't understand how there is no response or why the only response it to ful f ill their expectations of stridency. BKG ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 91 23:18:54 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: MRMAHER@SUVM.BITNET Subject: Re: men teaching women studies In-Reply-To: Your MAIL dated MON, 10 JUN 91 20:27:47 EDT I am responding to Anne Pemberson's interpretation of Wende Pusch's perspective on men teaching Women's Studies. Ms. Pemberson suggests that the reason Wende does not want men to teach Women's studies is "so that the professor [male] can examine life experiences, and thereby prove that oppression against women exists." I don't belineve Wende is concerned with how these men spend their time. She, in fact, does NOT suggest that NO men should be allowed to teach but that effective male teachers can never truly understand oppression the way some women do (excluding Anne P.). As I understand it, Wende also believes that these male teachers need to acknowledge, admit and incorporate the following ideas into their teaching: 1. they are using a male perspective & can never truly use a female one, 2. they are trying to understand & instill that understanding best they can, For those Anglos out there, try thinking of teaching African-American studies. Just a clarification. A marked characteristic of oppression is silencing. A short reference is Lewis & Simon, "A discourse not intended for her" Harvard Ed. Review (1989, in think). Silencing, whether anyone wants to admit it or not, is here, look for who is talked to and who is not, who is better responded to, who is not represented, who is given space to talk, whose talk is controlled, who gets interupted more. So we can discuss what oppression reallly is, see M. Frye. (1983) Politics of Reality: Essays in Feminist Theory. The Crossing Press. Keep the Faith, M. Maher ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 91 23:47:00 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: KIRSHENBLATT@NYUACF.BITNET Subject: RE: according to whom re-revisited Mike...re Karen and silencing. But why don't WOMEN understand the problem, at l east some women? BKG ========================================================================= Date: MON, 10 JUN 91 23:51:33 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: RTFC507@UTXVM.BITNET Subject: Notes from a (Male) Partisan I've recently joined the list, and have enjoyed the lively discussion. One question that has plagued me, however. What is the place of men on this list? As someone who vehemently supports women's space, I wonder if I and others are intruders in a discussion that would be much more fruitful and comfortable without men. If that is the case, then I will respectfully sign off--no hard feelings at all. Two things I did want to address, before I walk out the door. People have talked about oppression in various guises, including some men on this list feeling oppressed. Oppression is more than feeling excluded or hurt--it is a complete system of institutional and social practices that keep certain groups disenfranchised. That is why male oppression will never be interchangeable female oppression--until the systematized manner of misogyny, unequal pay, violence, and distorted representations are addressed. Thus to speak of women oppressing men is to grossly trivialize a much deeper, rooted oppression of men to women. I may be preaching to the choir, but men who question the validity of women's studies take heed. The other question I wanted to address is who should teach what. No one's talked about the students themselves. In the classes I teach, I try to emphasize that I'm not the expert, but the facilitator. What I try to do is create an environment comfortable enough for many different voices of experience to speak. There are times when I lapse into my expert mode, but that just tends to reduplicate a power structure of "You student, Me teacher." Instead of focusing on who is most appropriate to teach what class, perhaps we should examine the ways in which we can radically alter traditional classroom dynamics. Jane Tompkins' "Pedagogy of the Distressed" is an excellent introduction--If anyone wants, I can dig out the cite. Paolo Freire's _Pedagogy of the Oppressed_ is the book that seems to have reshaped many people's models about teaching. Steve Carr Internet: Steven.Carr@utxvm.cc.utexas.edu Bitnet: RTFC507@utxvm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 91 23:59:00 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: KIRSHENBLATT@NYUACF.BITNET Subject: Re: men teaching women studies Anne--right on!!! I share your sentiments exactly. BKG "Kirshenblatt@NYUACF" Bitnet ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 91 23:54:28 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Florence Subject: Re: Notes from a (Male) Partisan In-Reply-To: Message of MON, 10 JUN 91 23:51:33 EDT from Steve Carr I would like to say that for whatever it is worth, I for one would like you to continue to stay. It is not for me to say who goes, or who stays, but I thought I would give you my 2 cents worth :)! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 91 23:49:38 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Spike Subject: oppression.... Hmmm..... Sounds like Anne P. did misunderstand..... Or has misunderstood women's oppression. Oppression is not just physical abuse. There are many other ways in which women are oppressed, and my guess is that a woman who says she hasn't been oppressed just hasn't thought about it. Some of the more commonly used examples of how women are oppressed is: women must worry about their safety when walking alone at night. The pay differential between men and women..... When I was in graduate school in physical chemistry (the most male dominated field in chemistry) I really got a taste of the more subtle forms of how oppression affects women. In sitting around talking with other women grad students I actually heard more than one say that they felt they were better than other women because they were good in chemistry. Now that is oppression, it shows how not only our culture oppresses women, but also how women buy into it. Anne should really look at how she is treated by men, in particular men you don't know, and think about how they respond to you and look at how they respond to men. wende ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 91 00:05:00 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: KIRSHENBLATT@NYUACF.BITNET Subject: Re: men teaching women studies M. Maher...re silencing. Check the syntax of your message, mostly in the passiv e voice. Hmmm. BKG ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 91 00:19:22 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: MRMAHER@SUVM.BITNET Subject: Re: men teaching women studies In-Reply-To: Your MAIL dated Tue, 11 Jun 91 00:05:00 EDT Dear KGB, I confess that many women are socialized to use the passive voice. Yet another here and now example of oppression....I didn't even know it. Thanks for the lesson, (Some say i MIGHT BE.... PASSIVE agressive)...he he Michelle ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jun 91 23:05:24 CDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: cliff staples Subject: Re: Notes from a (Male) Partisan In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 10 Jun 91 23:54:28 EDT from Yeah, Steve, stick around. The folks here are fun. No one's run any of us out yet. Of course we talk too much, dominate the discourse, start fights, that's what men are for! Particularly academic men. I'll tell you one thing; it's comforting to me just to know that all these dedicated and caring people are out there doing what they do. It's less lonely. A community of sorts. So, I'll hang around as long as they'll have me. I alluded to this sometime ago in a posting on the politics of this board, but Steve said it better. I too would be willing to "go somewhere else" (where I have no idea. Does anyone know of a "men's studies" board? Several people have asked me, and I don't have any idea). Just say the word. Joan? One other matter. I sort of started the business about men teaching WS a week or so ago, and I just wanted to thank everyone, again, for the interesting conversation. Many of the issues I thought the possibility raised have been discussed here. For myself, I think it would be very important to spell out clearly how it would be near-impossible for me, as a man, to know or understand what it's like to be a woman in this society. And yet, I'm not altogether sure that this fact alone would be or should be enough in and of itself to disqualify someone from teaching a WS course (I'm not suggesting anyone explicitly said that). I think there are still positions from which one could teach, as a man, that would be consistent with the political, moral, and intellectual aims of Women's Studies and the women's movement (at least as I understand it, e.g. destroying patriarchy; ending structural violence against women; empowering women as cultural subjects/speakers). What it seems crucial to recognize is that such a course would be DIFFERENT from a course taught by a woman, just like a WS course with only women in it is likely to be different from one in which men are also present. Then, I suppose,"we," on the side of the angels, should interrogate those differences closely to see what kind of difference the difference makes, yes? The issue reminds me a little of what we deal with everytime someone asks me to go to a fraternity or somewhere to speak about male violence. We know that we're capitalizing on patriarchy, and to some extent reproducing it, by relying upon my status as male to get the young men to "pay more attention." The women I've worked with have decided that stopping the immediate problem is tooimportant to ignore, and I tend to agree. But it comes up almost every time. I know what FEELS best is doing this kind of work with a woman partner. So, ideally I suppose, that would be my preference with a class as well. On the matter of "silencing" I would strongly suggest Dorothy Smith's _The Everyday World as Problematic" Toward a Feminist Sociology_ particularly the chapter entitled "A Peculiar Eclipsing: Women's Absence in Man's Culture." Best, Cliff Staples ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 91 01:28:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: trish Subject: RE: Notes from a (Male) Partisan >Oppression is more than feeling excluded or hurt--it is a >complete system of institutional and social practices that keep certain groups >disenfranchised. That is why male oppression will never be interchangeable >female oppression--until the systematized manner of misogyny, unequal pay, >violence, and distorted representations are addressed. Thus to speak of women >oppressing men is to grossly trivialize a much deeper, rooted oppression of >men to women. I may be preaching to the choir, but men who question the >validity of women's studies take heed. steve: the above very succinctly and completely defines the differences between the inherent 'oppression' of women in contemporary (and historic) societies, and the 'reverse discrimination' men feel directed at them from within feminist critiques of 'patriarchy', 'misogyny', etc ... i add my voice to those of craig and florence: you should not contemplate leaving this list ... trish ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< trish wilson mc master university wilsont@sscvax.cis.mcmaster.ca hamilton,ontario,canada <<<<>>>> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 91 03:15:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: DON'T PANIC HITCHIKER'S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY Subject: Re: men teaching women studies Actually SUBJ: Florence Ginsburg's diss. Hi Although you probably are already "doing" this, without become so self-reflexive you feel as if you're in a gym, it may be useful to actually discuss how certain strins of the the developmental perspective itself (WHOOPS--strains) situates and analyzes child sexual assualt. The most obvious, of course, being Freud's seduction theory where the experience itself is erased and the affect transferred to the child (or grown child, as it were) of "desire" and "guilt"... where only the acceptance of this paradigm can lead to the norm (and normative!) Here the entire experience is used as "evidence" for particular stages of devleopment as (AS IF) manifested in time. This particular strain has beco9me very much a part of popular culture. Piaget to Levi-Strauss EVEN to Werner&Kaplan I believe you'll find less explicitly stated but similiar doings.... WOW what a depressing thesis! Good luck ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 91 07:44:03 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Karen Kay Subject: RE: according to whom re-revisited In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of MON 10 JUN 1991 23:43:00 EDT > Karen: I still don't get it--stridency, silence. Sounds like a whole new wor > .I don't understand how there is no response or why the only response it to fu > ill their expectations of stridency. BKG Now I can't remember what I said--but what I TRIED to say is not that the only response is stridency, but that any response will be *perceived * as strident--quite a different matter. When I was in graduate school, one of my professors waited until class began (even though we were both in the room for a good five minutes be- fore) to say that he had earlier looked through the window in the door of our departmental seminar room, and seen me with my feet on the table. "Ladies, Ms. Kay," he informed me, "do not put their feet on tables." And then he went on with the class. That's a pretty effective way to silence someone. Karen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 91 08:45:18 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Florence Subject: Re: men teaching women studies In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 11 Jun 91 03:15:00 EST from Hmm interesting. Yes I think that would be interesting to integrate within the body of the diss. I never thought about it as being a downer, but then again I guess it is, but I don't think that society really pays much attention to the long term effects. I don't want to go into a whole discussion, but society thinks that if the child makes it to adulthood, then these people are ok. Not so! So I wanted to try and enlighten! Thanks again for the suggestion! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 91 08:08:57 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Karen Kay Subject: Re: Notes from a (Male) Partisan In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of TUE 11 JUN 1991 00:05:24 EDT Cliff-- I began this discussion of men teaching women's studies thinking, 'If I were a student, I'd never take such a course', but the discussion has changed my mind. I think it would be great to have men teaching courses. BUT--I wonder about men alone teaching something like Intro to Women's Studies? (Usually the sole required course.) It sends a rather negative message. I like Arnie's idea of team-teaching, but I actually think it would be better to postpone the course rather than risk establishing Women's Studies as another male bastion. Last night I ate dinner with a group of people; most of these people had been at lunch two weeks ago when we talked about bathing suits. One of the new additions was a man. Well, bathing suits came up again, but it was a little difficult to talk about whether this new bathing suit showed pubic hair or not with a man sitting there. He may understand the problem, but he doesn't experience it, and so really cannot comment on it. The tenor of our conversation was quite different because he was there. I think the same thing would be true for a women's studies course. Karen Kay LL23@NEMOMUS ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 91 08:15:52 CDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: cliff staples Subject: Re: Notes from a (Male) Partisan In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 11 Jun 91 08:08:57 EDT from Karen: I hear you. The issue does seem to get to the core of just exactly what a Women's Studies class is all about (I was thinking of an Intro class, since that's the one I might end up teaching). If it's "by women, about women, and for women," then obviously, no, having a man teach it won't work. And, given that the university experience has historically been "by men, about men, and for men" by default in EVERY class, it might be a good idea to counter this, at least a little, and at least for a while, yet. There are lots of ways we (men) can fight the good fight. Supporting Women's Studies politically, teaching specialized courses, transforming our classrooms so that women feel comfortable in them, etc. Some of the feedback about the idea is encouraging me to rethink my initial enthusiasm for it. It's good to think about these things. Well, today's the first day of summer session.... Hi ho, hi ho, it's off to work we go..... regards, Cliff Staples ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 91 09:54:35 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: kathy whaley Subject: women & crime pat--you might take a look at _eva's man_ by gayl jones as a possible supplemental novel for your class. kathy whaley < sowhaley@ecuvm1.bitnet > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 91 09:58:05 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: diane Subject: Re: men teaching women studies In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 10 Jun 91 23:59:00 EDT from To Steve Carr: Bravo! I think that your ideas on reshaping the WAY in which courses are taught (facilitating vs. preaching) is definitely the direction to take. Rather than spinning wheels deciding who is more appropriate to head the class, the world, and everything, it is time we all throw off the gender/ culture/race boundaries and SHARE experiences. Diane Glazener BITNET: glaze@vtvm2 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 91 10:13:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Arnie Kahn Subject: Other possibilities Lot's of interesting posts on wmst-l this morning. I have put them all in a file and will read them carefully at lunch. I thought I'd point out two other lists that are available which discuss things similar to wmst-l, FEMAIL and MAIL-MEN. Both are moderated lists. FEMAIL has been inactive due to technical difficulties, but the moderator tells me those problems will be fixed shortly. FEMAIL discusses a variety of issues relevant to women, from discrimination to aging to PMS. MAIL-MEN discusses the men's movement, men's bodies, affirmative action, etc. Here are the addresses. FEMAIL - femail@hpldlh.hpl.hp.com MAIL-MEN - mail-men@attunix.att.com Arnie fac_askahn@jmuvax (bitnet) fac_askahn@vax1.acs.jmu.edu (internet) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 91 10:28:00 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Joan Korenman Subject: The purpose of WMST-L There has been a good deal of discussion lately about who and what belongs on WMST-L. As "listowner," I'd like to try again to clarify the list's purpose. WMST-L is intended primarily to serve the academic and professional needs of people involved with Women's Studies as teachers, students, researchers, and/or program administrators. Both women and men are welcome. The list gives people an opportunity to ask questions and exchange information about teaching strategies, useful texts and films, innovative courses, current research, funding sources, building Women's Studies majors, minors, and graduate programs, relations between Women's Studies and other "minority studies" programs, problems that Women's Studies programs encounter, etc. WMST-L also welcomes announcements about relevant conferences, calls for papers, job opportunities, publications, and the like. I hope that WMST-L will eventually serve as well as a file repository for course materials, curriculum proposals and projects, bibliographies, and other files related to Women's Studies. It seems to me that the discussions that have appeared on WMST-L about who should teach Women's Studies courses certainly belong on the list. WMST-L is not an appropriate place, however, for most other discussions of male/female relations (though I admit that drawing a precise line about what does and doesn't belong is probably impossible). The crucial point is that WMST-L has been established to fill a need not met by other lists, and there already ARE lists for informal discussion of male/female relations. Thus, I would urge those who wish to hold such discussions to do so on any or all of the following: On Bitnet, try GENDER@RPIECS. (I think subscriptions should be sent to SUPPORT@RPIECS.) I'm not sure whether GENDER is also accessible on Internet. Those with Internet access can look into two kinds of possibilities. One (with which I've had no experience) is a feminist mailing list called "feminists" that "is intended to provide a forum for discussion of issues of interest to women, in a friendly atmosphere." More information can be obtained from Patricia Collins. I have two email addresses for her: COLLINS@HPLABS.HP.COM and FEMAIL@HPLDLH.HPL.HP.COM. According to the information I have, both men and women can join. The other possibility available via Internet is the vast array of Usenet "newsgroups." Among the hundreds of groups are the following: soc.women soc.men soc.feminism soc.gender-issues The above newsgroups all carry discussions of male/female relations, as well as other topics. I think all are open to both women and men. I access Usenet newsgroups on a VAX/VMS system by typing "vnews" at the $ prompt. On Unix, I think Usenet may be called "rn" or "nn." However, I'm way out of my element here. The best thing would be to ask the computer people at your institution how to access Usenet newsgroups on your particular system (since I've found out that not even all VAX/VMS systems work alike). Let me make clear that I'm NOT trying to suggest that discussions of male/female relations and the like are unimportant or not of concern to Women's Studies. Far from it! I am simply saying that forums for such discussions already exist. Since many people have limited time and, in some cases, limited e-mail space, I'd like people to be able to subscribe to WMST-L for the sorts of professional discussions of Women's Studies that are not available elsewhere. Thanks for your understanding and cooperation. Joan Korenman Internet: korenman@umbc2.umbc.edu Bitnet: korenman@umbc ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 91 09:44:28 PST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: ANTHONY SHARON Subject: Who teaches Notes on who teaches what .... First, it seems that there are no male students involved in women's studies courses - this has not been my experience, but it has been a while since I've been in such a course. It seems we are all losing the war if only women take women's studies, and minority Xs take minority X's studies. Is the purpose of these courses to provide support and comfortable places to be for each XYZ minority, or is it to explore different perspectives (realities)? I personally don't want to take a stand on whether only minority X should teach minority X courses, but I do think that co-teaching in these situations has some strong advantages... the strongest perhaps being that non-X students have a role model of a non-X instructor who is knowledgeable and open to diversity. For example, I personally might be more comfortable with a Gay man teaching Women's studies than with just any woman teaching the course. My second concern is that of attributing, or expecting, expertise in a minority area _because_ someone _is_ X minority. To say that only women can present a woman's perspective, or only a Hispanic can present a Hispanic perspective is both true and not true. It is true in that, because of the sexism/racism in our society, one's minority status is distinctly experienced. It is not true in that the experience of one minority person is representative of experiences of all of that minority. A brief example: I am a lesbian who has presented a large number of what I'll call Homophobia 101 training sessions. Further, because I am a lesbian, I have been looked to on a regular basis to present _the_ lesbian perspective. This role has fallen to me so frequently, that I have often said within my heart of hearts, "why don't 'they' ask me about something else? how about my opinions on the welfare system, or the juvenile justice system, or on minorities in general?" It's not that I feel burdened by presenting the lesbian perspective (which I always qualify by stating I don't represent all lesbians- only my perspective), rather that 1) it is assumed I am an expert on the subject, and 2) it's the only thing I am an expert on. Sharon Anthony SLA@PCCCP6.BITNET Sharon Anthony [Portland Community College] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 91 13:32:10 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Florence Ginsburg Subject: Re: Who teaches In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 11 Jun 91 09:44:28 PST from Sharon Anthony, I am just curious, why you would prefer a 'Gay' male to teach a Women's study course over 'any' woman? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 91 13:35:52 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Florence Ginsburg Subject: New England Women's Studies Assn. Any one out there connected with the NEWSA? I would like to get on the mailing address! Let me know, if there is someone who has a direct link? Thanks in advance ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 91 13:51:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Arnie Kahn Subject: musings I've been reading stuff that has been posted here in the past 24 hours. Much of the discussion concerning whether or not men should teach Intro. to Women's Studies seems to focus on "women's experience" and whether any man can "experience" "women's oppression." 1. To what extent can one talk about "women's experience" versus "womens' experiences?" How much variance is there among the life experiences of various women? I ask this because one argument put forth was that "men use a male perspective and can never truly use a female one." Is the female perspective that of a white, middle-class, heterosexual, physically able female? 2. To what extent are the life experiences of women due to being female as opposed to being oppressed? That is, if there were no oppression of women, no silencing of women, would there need to be a Women's Studies Program? I guess I'm asking the extent to which we believe gender is a social construct versus an essential difference among human beings. If there is a single female experience and females are by nature different from males, then perhaps the teaching should be limited to women. If there are many different experiences of different women and gender is seen as socially constructed, then there would be less of a case. (Note, the above reasoning does not deal with other justifications, like role models, for women teaching women's studies.) I would be interested in your opinions. Arnie Kahn fac_askahn@jmuvax (bitnet) fac_askahn@vax1.acs.jmu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 91 10:32:16 PST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "ALAN C. ACOCK" Subject: Who teaches women studies The responses from this list suggest to me that there are some women who would do a lot worse job teaching a women's studies course than some men. It is certainly true that it is difficult, if not impossible, for men to fully understand the life experience of women. It is certainly true that the average feminist woman will have a different class than the average feminist man in the same way that the sex ratio and background of students will modify the quality of the class. While men and women both vary greatly in their ability to teach a core women's study class, I think they also differ qualitatively in their experience. In recruiting a new Director of Women's Studies at my university, it was not surprising that there were no men among the finalist. Having a male finalist would have been surprising. However, I am unwilling to rule out the possibility that the best director might be a man. I believe that the best instructor of a women's studies course might also be a man. A feminist male instructor might have considerable difficulty drawing out the experience of female students. Still, he might do a better job than a lot of female instructors, including some feminist female instructors. Alan C. Acock ACOCK@ORSTVM ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 91 14:12:16 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: lesley daignault pease Subject: Women in Singapore media research In-Reply-To: Your MAIL dated Fri, 7 Jun 91 16:01:20 EDT When you searched DIALOG, which databases did you search? Both media/communications and women's studies are tough to search online--no one place to look, so many databases are needed. I would suggest the following (print and online sources) : Women's Studies Absts, Studies on Women Absts., Communication Absts., Sociological Absts., SSCI, PAIS, and maybe even Social Sciences Index and Humanities Index. Good luck ! lesley ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 91 14:18:34 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: lesley daignault pease Re: portrayal of women in media (Singapore) To the searcher...(discarded the message and then remembered another source) - also try Alternative Press Index ! lesley ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 91 14:14:46 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Bronwyn Subject: Re: Notes from a (Male) Partisan In-Reply-To: Message of MON, 10 JUN 91 23:51:33 EDT from I can't reply in such length as I'd like, due to time constraints, but I'd like to say--male partisan, stay on this list as long as you'd like. Aside from the fact that I don't have the right to grant or deny you permission, your obvious respect for women's space to figure out exactly what their perspectives are makes me feel absolutely comfortable with having you here. Indeed, by respecting women's space you are helping to create it. Women's space is not simply physical (or, in this case, electronic) just as Woolf's room of her own is not simply just a room. It's knowing that you differ from women and that women might have experience(s) and perspective(s) which are positioned differently from yours. It's knowing that women are other than you but not subordinate. Since you already have that consciousness, I therefore have no NEED to exclude you--as I might with a man who insists on merging. More later. Bronwyn University of Florida ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 91 14:24:19 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Florence Ginsburg Subject: Re: musings In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 11 Jun 91 13:51:00 EST from Arnie, You and your variance questions! :) Sounds like some good and interesting stuff for an empirical study! Maybe I should forget about the topic I have for my dissertation and try the question(s) you pose? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 91 13:35:49 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Claire Pedretti Subject: RE: according to whom re-revisited In-Reply-To: <9106110345.AA20441@mace.cc.purdue.edu>; from "*" at Jun 10, 91 11:43 pm I am nnot Karen, but I can't wait for her answer. >Karen: I still don't get it--stridency, silence. Sounds like a whole new world >.I don't understand how there is no response or why the only response it to ful >ill their expectations of stridency. BKG > If the dominant male culture claims that women are strident, and refuses to respect arguments made by strident people, and further, if they define strident (usually as anything counter to their wisdom said, no matter how calmly, by a woman), then a woman has two choices: to not speak and be literally silent, or to speak and be discounted as strident; ie, figuratively silent. Claire Pedretti vva@mace.cc.purdue.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 91 13:48:52 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Claire Pedretti Subject: Re: Notes from a (Male) Partisan In-Reply-To: <9106110353.AA22356@mace.cc.purdue.edu>; from "*" at Jun 10, 91 11:51 pm Steve writes: >The other question I wanted to address is who should teach what. No one's >talked about the students themselves. In the classes I teach, I try to >emphasize that I'm not the expert, but the facilitator. What I try to do is >create an environment comfortable enough for many different voices of >experience to speak. There are times when I lapse into my expert mode, but >that just tends to reduplicate a power structure of "You student, Me teacher." >Instead of focusing on who is most appropriate to teach what class, perhaps we >should examine the ways in which we can radically alter traditional classroom >dynamics. Jane Tompkins' "Pedagogy of the Distressed" is an excellent >introduction--If anyone wants, I can dig out the cite. Paolo Freire's >_Pedagogy of the Oppressed_ is the book that seems to have reshaped many >people's models about teaching. I'd like the citation for the Tompkins' piece, and I'd like to see discussion of pedagogy. Claire Pedretti vva@mace.cc.purdue.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 91 15:22:31 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: VILLERS@OUACCVMB.BITNET Subject: children & sexual assault In response to F. Ginsburg's (?) query about sexual violence in children, may I suggest some of the nursing journals, in particular those that specialize in pediatrics? Other sources of information or for statistics may be children's hospitals and shelters for battered women. I am a registered nurse and, like other nurses, often have to take care of the victims of violence. I am also in a profession that's more than 90% women. On the side, I teach French and Spanish at the university. I hope some of this information helps. Anne Villers@ouaccvmb.bitnet ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 91 12:36:04 PDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Betty J Glass Subject: bathing suits Then again, the discussion about whether or not a bathing suit reveals pubic hair could, in a mixed gender audience, lead to a discussion about the prevailing definitions of beauty in USA culture, why female homosapiens are "supposed" to be hairless from the neck nape/eyes down, and how hopeless it is for most adult women to attain/retain the kind of figure itsy bitsy bathing suit designers have in mind. Betty Glass glass@equinox.unr.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 91 15:56:30 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Florence Subject: Re: children & sexual assault In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 11 Jun 91 15:22:31 EST from Anne, Thanks, the info certainly helps. I have a number of references from such journals. Where are you from? Thanks again, Florence ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 91 16:30:30 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: lesley daignault pease To Dan Tsang and interested others... The June 12 issue of _Outweek_ (just arrived today) has an article on p36-41 on the FBI and lesbians and gays. lesley ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 91 16:53:03 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Bronwyn Subject: Re: Who teaches In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 11 Jun 91 09:44:28 PST from Whew, Sharon. There's a lot to respond to in your message. First, you ask: "Is the purpose of these (Women's Studies, Minority Studies) courses to provide support and a comfortable place to be OR a place to explore different perspecti ves?" First off, asking what the (one) purpose of Women's Studies is obviously opens a major can of worms. It reminds me of someone asking me what (one thing) produces homosexuality. I haven't thought this out fully, but the type of question that asks "What is the purpose of x?" or "What produces y?" often seems to reduce the issue,the discussion itself, into terms which ignore the full potential, being, diversity, etc. of what you're talking about. It also strikes me (I'm just free associating now) that the language of these questions is quite capitalistic...what produces, what is the purpose, what work does x do, what is the one meaning which produces or is produced... Enough babbling. The other obvious issue is that you're operating in an either/or mode. I have recently been an undergraduate student, and my experienc in such classes has been both one of "support" or affirmation, and exploration of different perspectives. And, for God's sake, the "one" thing such classes rarely are is comfortable! Even the affirmation comes in a context of profound change, unsettling change, struggle within oneself, with other women, with the sexism within oneself, with the sexism within other women, AND with men-- if any happen to be there. I am usually more than glad when any do happen to be there. But I'm not willing to describe the purpose of Women's Studies, feminism or anything else as men's conversion to the right, feminist morality, or anything else. I have often seen that unspoken assumption among feminists--i.e. "Oh, we're here to enlighte these otherwise angelic men about their mistakes. I'm sure if we explain it they will all (a little slow,the poor dears) catch up with us." I'm afraid that this perspective reminds me of the nineteenth century myth of the moral woman on the pedestal, whose sole purpose is to raise man from the moral morass in which he flounders. Isn't this perspective insulting to both women and men? Isn't the raising of one's consciousness a personal responsibility as well as a social one? For this reason, I also would not exclude men from taking these courses. It matters to me that they also struggle with these issues. But it's not my responsibility, or the purpose of women's studies to make sure that they do so. It's theirs. Finally, I get the feeling that you are trivializing the "support" you mentioned. In my book, such "support" or affirmation is a profoundly political and indeed subversive act, for someone who gets practically none of it otherwise. In conjunction with the examination of diverse viewpoints (without which I don't think it can occur) I think such affirmation is the most important thing Women's Studies can do--though I won't state it as its Purpose. Bronwyn University of Florida ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 91 17:08:00 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Joan Korenman Subject: Using WMST-L I'd like to thank those of you who have decided to conduct your discussions of male/female relations on other forums; I'd also like to discourage those who continue to use WMST-L as such a forum. I've been receiving a steady stream of messages (and signoffs) complaining about both the subject matter and the number of messages from WMST-L. My earlier message today addressed the former issue. To deal with the latter, I'd like to suggest that people use restraint and discretion in responding to WMST-L. Messages such as "I agree" or "Thanks for the info" should be sent to the specific individuals being agreed with or thanked, rather than to the list. Please only send responses to the list that others would find informative. Many thanks. Joan Korenman Internet: korenman@umbc2.umbc.edu Bitnet: korenman@umbc ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 91 17:28:31 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Karen Kay Subject: Re: Notes from a (Male) Partisan In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of TUE 11 JUN 1991 09:15:52 EDT Cliff-- I've forgotten if you said how you got into this... Was this your idea? I brought up the subject of men teaching women's studies at power lunch today, and the other women at the table were dubious. One major question was why aren't women involved. Are there simply no women? Or no women willing/able to teach? That sounds a little critical, but it is a point of information. One friend suggested that having a man teach women's studies is per- haps one way to legitimate the discipline for the male hierarchy. I think that's a fascinating idea... In any case, you should play that for all it's worth. Karen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 91 15:58:17 -0700 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Dan Tsang In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 11 Jun 91 16:30:30 -0400. <9106111332.aa27092@orion.oac.uci.edu> > To Dan Tsang and interested others... > The June 12 issue of _Outweek_ (just arrived > today) has an article on p36-41 on the FBI > and lesbians and gays. > lesley Thanks Lesley, I haven't seen it, but I understand they dismiss any current surveillance. I am not convinced of that. A number of you have written about my antisurveillance project. I am collecting files released under the FOIA or Privacy Act or state or local statutes. The aim is to archive this material, eventually index and microfilm it, and disperse it so that folks can be educated about what went on. If you lived in Michigan, the red squad file there is now being archived; if you need more info on that project, let me know. In San Francisco, unfortunately, after a brief period of time, when you can request your file from the police department, the documents will be destroyed. As one interested in social history, I regret the decision (involving the ACLU) not to archive the material. I understand the concern of those who feel privacy rights outweigh the right of the public to view these files. However, over time, individuals may be willing to make public those files. What I am hoping to do is to initially just inventory what is out there in terms of surveillance and harassment of lesbians and gay males and bisexuals. It is part of the history/herstory of rebellion and its repression in this country that I am trying to preserve. In lieu of more individual replies to each of you who wrote me, I plan to post in the near future a sample letter for a request under the FOIA (Freedom of Information Act). Individuals who request their personal files must have the letter notarized. But you can write for files on any group or topic you want. The addresses of US Government Agencies are in a book libraries should have: US Government Manual. For FBI for example, you should write to both FBI HQ and also the nearest field office (nearest to your residence at the time). This whole process, especially if they have something, may take months or years. I first did this over a decade ago, and I am still at it. Let me know if you find something, or know of someone with files, or hear/read of articles on the topic. My e-mail address is dtsang@uci.edu or dtsang@uci.bitnet. I work as a librarian at UC Irvine Library. You can also write me at: 380 Main Library, PO Box 19557, University of California, Irvine CA 92713. Thanks. Dan Tsang. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 91 21:12:00 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: KIRSHENBLATT@NYUACF.BITNET Subject: Re: men teaching women studies If the presence of men inhibits what can be discussed in a women's studies cours e does that mean male students are not welcome or just that male teachers are th e problem? BKG ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 91 21:18:00 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: KIRSHENBLATT@NYUACF.BITNET Subject: RE: Who teaches Consider the debates in anthropology about insider ethnographers, etc. Might sh ed light on the topic of who should be teaching what. BKG ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 91 21:23:00 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: KIRSHENBLATT@NYUACF.BITNET Subject: RE: according to whom re-revisited I don't follow the logic because I don't grant the premise. Who says the domina nt male culture says women are strident? BKG ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 91 21:28:00 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: KIRSHENBLATT@NYUACF.BITNET Plz post letter for requesting FBI files. Can one request files regarding a thi rd party, deceased? BKG ========================================================================= Date: TUE, 11 JUN 91 22:18:33 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: RTFC507@UTXVM.BITNET Subject: Tompkins cite Many asked for Tompkins cite, but I thought I'd also stick in a word of thanks to all those who encouraged my participation. I feel guilty now, as if I grandstanded, but I asked out of a genuine respect for women's space. Anyway, the Tompkins cite is: Tompkins, Jane. "Pedagogy of the Distressed." _College English_ 52 (1990): 653-60. Great summation of Freire: "You cannot have a revolution unless education becomes a practice of freedom." (653) Steve Carr Internet: Steven.Carr@utxvm.cc.utexas.edu Bitnet: RTFC507@utxvm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jun 91 22:27:59 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Spike Subject: Who should teach.... I would first like to respond to Arnie's note that posed the the questions...: ========================================================================= 1. To what extent can one talk about "women's experience" versus "womens' experiences?" How much variance is there among the life experiences of various women? I ask this because one argument put forth was that "men use a male perspective and can never truly use a female one." Is the female perspective that of a white, middle-class, heterosexual, physically able female? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The question seems to suppose that the male perspective must also be one of, say, whte, middle-class, hetero, physically abled man. Just as there must be many male perspectives, there are also women's perspectives. I come from a seemingly radical lesbian point of view (or so people tell me) so certainly my perspective is different from heterosexual women. I am a lesbian, and that affects all that I do and the way I would teach any class. When I was a TA for general chemistry I found I tended to pay more attention to the women in my classes than the men. (seemed only natural to me) Anyway.... The point is, whoever is teaching a women's studies course needs to examine where they are coming from and how that will affect how they teach. I too have done some of those "homosexuality 101" type lectures for classes (such as under grad social work courses). When I go in I make it clear that I cannot present the gay man's perspective, and not even that of all lesbians. I think that whoever teaches should try to help students see how where they are coming from will affect how they teach, what text they select, what info they choose to present. ** I would like to stick in one brief comment responding to teh note by Sharon Anthony. It was interesting to see the comment that you would rather see a gay man teach wmst then just any woman. (Certianly there are some women I would not want to teach it also, imagine phyllis schlafly up there teaching it.) It struck me as sort of funny, since I tend to view gay men as coming from the most male-centered perspecitive in our culture. But then, my guess is that the people who I think would be the worst to have teaching wsmt would be teh ones who would feel that it isn't necessary, or even a valid course of study. well, I think I will end this note... (Since I tend to ignore any notes over 100 lines I imagine that others may have a similar response.) ************************************************************************ Wende S. Pusch Graduate Student on the Loose Pretty scary, eh? Syracuse University Bitnet: WENDEP@SUVM Internet: I'll have to check on this one. ************************************************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jun 91 03:28:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: DON'T PANIC HITCHIKER'S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY Subject: Re: New England Women's Studies Assn. If you would like access to NEWSA info and /OR any aditional info on similar assn. groups in the region... Call Joanne Ljungberg--she staffs the WOmen's STudies program office at Clark UNiversity. 508 (793-7711 and ask for w.s.) or email. OR email Clark's Women's Studies Co-ordinator, Rachel Falmagne RFALMAGNE@VAX.CLARKU.EDU internet RFALMAGNE@CLARKU bitnet just say Lois gave the contact (I'd give you the info but I'm home...L.) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jun 91 03:57:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: DON'T PANIC HITCHIKER'S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY Subject: Subjects One last try from this corner of virtual reality, tho I sign off for July anyway, I was trenched (a southeast cut-off) thru a "personal" response when I suggested sub-conversations. The gent in question took the sub as a diminution. For clarification: The "purpose" of WMST, as stated, is at this point cleraly not the center of discourse. I have many colleagues to whom I would recommend the list but cannot at this point. Again this is NOT to vitiate the "value" of the present exchanges. A possible solution...if the list mediators have the technology available is to set up a sub-list whenever a partocular topic arises that clearly may not be of central interest to the majority of subscibers. We do this on xlchc all the time. The central list involves cognitive psych. when issues around the recent war arose, x-war was created and those interested also "joined" that list, same for x-class, x-history, etc etc. So, for example, this list could have a sub-list gen-teach (ie for the people interested in the discussion of whether boys, girls or oranges should teach fem-stud classes...) When interest wanes, the sub-list disappears. I believe that such an approach--especially in the fall when faculty return--is not only viable, but critical. If not, I have a hunch that the initial purpose, nay the list itself, will dissolve. Lois Brynes Clark University & The New England Science Center LBRYNES@VAX.CLARKU.EDU LBRYNES@CLARKU ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jun 91 07:35:54 CDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Ken Nagelberg Subject: Who teaches what? It's sad that Cliff Staples even has to ask the question of whether a male should be able to teach a Womens Studies course. It reminds me of my college radio days when we argued over whether white people could play jazz ("Can a blue man play the whites?"). On the other hand, I suppose it depends on the purpose of the course. If the purpose is an academic, scholarly one, then the only qualifications should be academic, scholarly ones, not sex organs (or height, weight, hair color or other irrelevancies). On the other hand, if the course is designed as a support group, t-group, etc., then the gender of the instructor is quite relevant. BUT, such a course should not be given for college credit, either! Ken Nagelberg JRNAGL @ LSUVM ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jun 91 08:55:56 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: VILLERS@OUACCVMB.BITNET Subject: for Florence Ginsburg Dear FG: Thank you for writing back. I'm at Ohio University in Athens. I teach mostly French but some Spanish as well when I have time. It is rather odd to hear people discuss violence and discrimination in such academic terms with all due politeness and restraint. Most of the victims of violence that I see or take care off are often uneducated or too young to be articulate. I joined the list hoping to find other nurses out there. Gender issues are a Moebius strip as far as I am concerned. I am interested in your research although I have no idea which direction you are taking. Do keep in touch. By the way, your e-mail address got filed somewhere in the system and I haven't figured out how to retrieve it yet. Please send new one. Thanks you. AV@ouaccvmb ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jun 91 09:48:42 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2 From: "Leonard P. Hirsch" Subject: Who teaches In-Reply-To: note of 06/11/91 12:51 From: Leonard P. Hirsch Office of International Relations/Q-3123 (202) 357-4788 +-----------------------------------------------------+ | Leonard Hirsch (202) 357-4788/FAX (202)786-2557 | | Smithsonian Institution BITNET INCEM005@SIVM | +-----------------------------------------------------+ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jun 91 08:39:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Julia T Wood Subject: who can talk about whom I just subscribed to this forum, so I tuned in late to the discussion of who can/should teach wmst. courses. At the National Conference on Gender and Communication Research we have for two years grappled with the question of whether we who teach courses in wmst or gender related courses in our department can speak FOR or ABOUT experiences of others. Can I as a white hetero Buddhist speak about the experiences of a hispanic Catholic? Can that hispanic woman speak about or for the experiences of a black lesbian? Can any of the 3 of us speak about or for or of the experiences of rural poor, Asians, women over 50? Are any of these "groups" I just named really homogeneous? If we argue men cannot or should not teach wmst. because they cannot know women's experience [an essentialized construct] then where do we draw lines about what any of us can teach? Have women not always taught about and spoken for and of men's experiences [another essentialized construct]? Seems to me we have to make our backgrounds explicit to ourselves and our students and constantly acknowledge the limits of subject positioning, but we must teach beyond our individual experience or what are we teaching? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jun 91 11:25:55 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: lesley daignault pease Subject: New England Women's Studies Assn. In-Reply-To: Your MAIL dated Tue, 11 Jun 91 13:35:52 EDT What is NEWSA? libldp at suvm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jun 91 11:45:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Arnie Kahn Subject: request for information Can someone supply me a reference to an article, chapter or book that discusses the beginnings of Women's Studies in the 1970s? I need one or more references for the following sentences in an article I'm writing: In the 1970s Women's Studies programs sprang up across the United States in response to the androcentric orientation of much of the scholarly work conducted within academe. The basic tenet of these programs was to foster a woman-centered view of scholarship that focused on the lives, experiences and contributions of women. Please respond directly to me rather than cluttering the list with responses Thanks, Arnie Kahn fac_askahn@jmuvax (bitnet) or fac_askahn@vax1.acs.jmu.edu (internet) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jun 91 12:21:02 CDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Mary Kay Schleiter Subject: Audre Lorde As a member of the black history month committee, I would like to urge the committee to invite Audre Lorde to campus. We had Gwendolyn Brooks this year, and it was wonderful. I am hoping the campus will also respond to a more radical poet. Does anyone have information on how to get in touch with Audre Lorde, fees, and/or experiences of campus visits? Mary Kay mks@vacs.uwp.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jun 91 13:32:12 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Bronwyn Subject: Re: who can talk about whom In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 12 Jun 91 08:39:00 EST from I think what we're dealing with here (as Arnie has said) is the question of difference--the difference between men and women, the difference between women, etc. Again, something that strikes me is the either-or nature of this debate. When people say something that implies that men cannot represent women's experience and therefore should not teach a women's studies class, others respond by saying that women are different from each other--as if women's differences from each other deconstruct the differences between women and men. I guess it's obvious that I don't agree with that view. I see each of us as having layers of differences from each other--i.e, as a lesbian, yes, I have experienced some frustration in being taught Women's Studies courses only by straight women, who obviously cannot speak very well to my experiences as a lesbian. At the same time, there are many many things I have in common with these women as women. Although, as a lesbian, I am different from straight women, that does not stop me from continuing to be different from men as a woman. This may seem extremely complicated. But I think we are extremely complicated. About essentialism and the body--yes, my view of women's studies has an essentialist foundation. That is, I assume that there is such a thing as "experience(s)" that these things are valid objects of study, that these things are affected by what sex organs or skin color someone has--if only because culture positions folks according to sex organs and skin color--because power is distributed according to these positions. Yes, I believe that it matters what one's body looks like, who one sleeps with, etc. It makes a difference whether one is a woman or a man. Feminism itself is rooted in that assumption. What would feminism "mean" if one believed that women and men were indistinguishable from one another? Would it not become meaningless? How can one, for example, agitate for women's rights, for equal representation in the workforce, if one believes that it makes no difference to an individual or to the institution if he/she is male or female? I must say that the "white men playing jazz" example ignores the political aspect of women's studies entirely. We are not simply talking about the ability to teach, we are talking about putting women into positions of power and empowering women's voices and experience. And I fail to see how placing a white man in charge of a core course for women's studies helps to diversify feminism or educate us on the differences between women. Sorry for the long harangue. I'm signing off the list in a few days, and wanted to put in my 2 cents. Bronwyn University of Florida ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jun 91 14:02:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: RHODA UNGER Subject: Re: who can talk about whom I want to second Bronwyn's comments about the importance of difference. However, I don't think the issue of whether or not women and men differ or whether women differ from each other in terms of race, class, sexual orienta- tion, etc. is as important as the question of when difference matters. An example I have sometimes used in my classroom is my childhood yearning to play basketball despite being about 5 feet tall. This is a difference that matters to me, but not to most other women. Society determines which of an infinity of differences is important. As an important European social psychologist Henri Tajfel once put it "It is the distinction that matters-- not the difference." I don't think we would be having most of the arguments going on on this network if it were only differences we were concerned with. Rhoda ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jun 91 14:19:53 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Spike Subject: who teaches what... Just before logging on I was thinking along the same lines as Bronwyn. If we thought that teaching and learning were not political then it may not matter who teaches what. But I think teaching is political (which would tie into male vs female perspective as well as differences between women) Yes this is complex. But.... one point here, alluded to in Bronwyn's experience, that has yet to be the focus of the discussion is: what does the teachers perspective mean to the learner? (BTW: So far in my notes, many examples have come from my experience in chemistry. But, I jumped ship a few years ago and am in Instructional Design, Development, and Evaluation here at Syracuse. My focus has been on Ed Psych end of that field.) Example: A friend of mine was taking a gender in ed course here at SU. The course was taught by a white, heterosexual, feminist woman (some might say that using both feminist and woman is redundent, but that is another political issue). I was amazed at how my friends perceptions of information presented to the class was interpreted based on where the instructor was coming from (heterosexual, middle class.... ). Clearly the she was questioning the instructors credibility. Also, her perspective affected her interpretation of what was presented. One assumption here is that it is almost impossible to present any information without letting your perspective affect that. In other words, it is very hard to keep ones politics out of the classrooom. wende ************************************************************************ Wende S. Pusch Graduate Student on the Loose Pretty scary, eh? Syracuse University Bitnet: WENDEP@SUVM ************************************************************************ Received: by SUVM (Mailer R2.08) id 4844; Wed, 12 Jun 91 14:40:21 LCL Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1991 14:19:53 EDT From: Spike To: WMST-L@UMDD Subject: who teaches what... Just before logging on I was thinking along the same lines as Bronwyn. If we thought that teaching and learning were not political then it may not matter who teaches what. But I think teaching is political (which would tie into male vs female perspective as well as differences between women) Yes this is complex. But.... one point here, alluded to in Bronwyn's experience, that has yet to be the focus of the discussion is: what does the teachers perspective mean to the learner? (BTW: So far in my notes, many examples have come from my experience in chemistry. But, I jumped ship a few years ago and am in Instructional Design, Development, and Evaluation here at Syracuse. My focus has been on Ed Psych end of that field.) Example: A friend of mine was taking a gender in ed course here at SU. The course was taught by a white, heterosexual, feminist woman (some might say that using both feminist and woman is redundent, but that is another political issue). I was amazed at how my friends perceptions of information presented to the class was interpreted based on where the instructor was coming from (heterosexual, middle class.... ). Clearly the she was questioning the instructors credibility. Also, her perspective affected her interpretation of what was presented. One assumption here is that it is almost impossible to present any information without letting your perspective affect that. In other words, it is very hard to keep ones politics out of the classrooom. wende ************************************************************************ Wende S. Pusch Graduate Student on the Loose Pretty scary, eh? Syracuse University Bitnet: WENDEP@SUVM Received: from SUVM.ACS.SYR.EDU by UMDD.BITNET (Mailer R2.03B) with BSMTP id 3388; Wed, 12 Jun 91 14:40:03 EDT Received: by SUVM (Mailer R2.08) id 4844; Wed, 12 Jun 91 14:40:21 LCL Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1991 14:19:53 EDT From: Spike To: WMST-L@UMDD Subject: who teaches what... Just before logging on I was thinking along the same lines as Bronwyn. If we thought that teaching and learning were not political then it may not matter who teaches what. But I think teaching is political (which would tie into male vs female perspective as well as differences between women) Yes this is complex. But.... one point here, alluded to in Bronwyn's experience, that has yet to be the focus of the discussion is: what does the teachers perspective mean to the learner? (BTW: So far in my notes, many examples have come from my experience in chemistry. But, I jumped ship a few years ago and am in Instructional Design, Development, and Evaluation here at Syracuse. My focus has been on Ed Psych end of that field.) Example: A friend of mine was taking a gender in ed course here at SU. The course was taught by a white, heterosexual, feminist woman (some might say that using both feminist and woman is redundent, but that is another political issue). I was amazed at how my friends perceptions of information presented to the class was interpreted based on where the instructor was coming from (heterosexual, middle class.... ). Clearly the she was questioning the instructors credibility. Also, her perspective affected her interpretation of what was presented. One assumption here is that it is almost impossible to present any information without letting your perspective affect that. In other words, it is very hard to keep ones politics out of the classrooom. wende ************************************************************************ Wende S. Pusch Graduate Student on the Loose Pretty scary, eh? Syracuse University Bitnet: WENDEP@SUVM ************************************************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jun 91 14:16:00 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Joan Korenman Subject: New Book Series The following announcement may be of interest to WMST-L subscribers. The University Press of Virginia announces a new series. "Knowledge: Disciplinarity and Beyond" will feature books that examine, critically and imaginatively, the organization and production of knowledge--for instance, disciplinary histories, institutional topographies, and studies of counter- and extra-disciplinary enterprises. The editors are Ellen Messer-Davidow (University of Minnesota), David R. Shumway (Carnegie Mellon University), and David J. Sylvan (University of Minnesota). Queries for more information and ten-page proposals for monographs and collections may be addressed to: The Editors, Disciplinarity Series, The University Press of Virginia, Box 3508, University Station, Charlottesville, VA 22903. Joan Korenman Internet: korenman@umbc2.umbc.edu Bitnet: korenman@umbc ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jun 91 15:45:41 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Bronwyn Subject: Re: who can talk about whom In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 12 Jun 91 14:02:00 EST from Right on, Rhoda. where difference is recognized and deemed important is cultural and depends on where the power is. Good point. Bronwyn ========================================================================= Date: WED, 12 JUN 91 18:20:41 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Anne Pemberton Subject: Re: men teaching women studies If the assumption that men "cannot" or "should not" teach women studies is true, then I must surely stop what I do so often in my own classroom. I teach HS English to special ed students in a small rural school. More than half of my students are both black and male. Nevertheless, the topic of sexuality and sexual practice comes up, esp when the students are all-male. The students obviously understand that my experience is primarily that of a white, middle-aged female, but includes the "experience" of educating a couple of now-adult sons, and "learning from" a couple of husbands. In addition, I was "trained" in the VA Family Life curriculum, which is, more or less, the viewpoint I present to my students. My students may tune me out if they wish, and probably some do. Others, tho, are more interested in the information that is developed as I *GUIDE* the discussion, and lead them to make their own conclusions (which may or may not conform to the published curriculum!!) A good teacher will be a good teacher irrespective of his/her perspective, if he/she encourages the students to explore the subject and increase their learning. Incidently, I, too, am quite turned off when someone in a debate becomes "stident". It would behoove one who is accused of "stridency" to find another way of presenting their viewpoint. As to the professor who upbraided for the present of feet on a table, my own response would likely to have been to prop my feet up on a desk in his class for the duration of the term. But, then, I profess to be no lady, and I have attained the age where I am less easily "oppressed". There is more to life than licking one's perceived wounds. Anne Pemberton Wilsons, VA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jun 91 19:13:38 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: ALLAN Subject: Re: Some thoughts about WMST-L In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 06 Jun 91 20:30:17 EDT from HAVE NOW "SUBSCRIBED".....NOW WHAT? WHERE DOES THE CONVERSATION TAKE PLACE? WHERE ARE THE ARTICLES AVAILABLE TO BE READ? WHERE DO I SEND MY STUFF? (I WARNED YOU I'D NEED INSTRUX'NS FOR THE COMPLEAT IDIOT!) OH YEAH, THANKS... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jun 91 20:02:55 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Florence Ginsburg Subject: Re: men teaching women studies In-Reply-To: Message of WED, 12 JUN 91 18:20:41 EDT from Replying to Anne Pemberton's posting. Can we really equate teaching English with that of Women's Studies? I don't want to be rude, but isn't that comparing apples and oranges? They are both fruit, but quite different, yes? No? ========================================================================= Date: WED, 12 JUN 91 22:02:57 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Anne Pemberton Subject: Re: men teaching women studies In case anyone else beside Florence missed the point, while I teach English, the discussions in some of my all-male classes get off the point, and onto human sexuality. Inasmuch as the VA Family Life Curriculum objectives are sometimes addressed in the English class, I don't *have* to close down the discussion, and the fact that they are special ed students also gives me the latitude to include this as valid material for discussion in my "English" class. The point is that these fellows are "black males", and I am a "white female". I have not, and cannot experience human sexuality as they do, but neither they nor I feel that disqualifies me to guide their learning or to answer their sometime *very* direct questions. The only "apples vs oranges" issue I see in this comparison is that we are comparing high school, where female instructors are the norm, to college, where male instructors are the norm. Certainly it would be preferable to have all compassionate black teachers to guide these fellows, but I am who is available. So I do it. Likewise, if a college wants to offer a Woman's Studies class, it is better they offer the class with a good instructor, rather than not offer the class at all. Anne Pemberton Wilsons, VA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jun 91 20:40:00 CDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Michael Ossar Subject: men teaching women's studies It saddens me to see so many of us thinking of people in terms of categories, i.e. saying things like I would rather teach together with a gay man than a straight woman. I remember hearing Martin Luther King talking about judging people by the content of their character rather than the color of their skin and thinking that the force of his words commanded assent so powerfully that no one could possibly disagree. However, the assumption of some of us seems to be that one can learn only from someone who's experiences are congruent with one's own to the greatest possible degree, a lesbian can learn something from a straight woman, but not nearly as much as she can from a lesbian. But is it really true that education can only take place when the teacher is an exact replica of the student? I think that Anne Pemberton had it exactly right--the teacher is really more of a guide, and, ideally, is there to learn as well as to teach--even from the male students. Especially from the male students. No one argues that the differences of biology and experience are not important. People who stand at different places see diffent things, and men and women *do* stand in very different places. Still, there is a certain amount of hybris involved in saying that only what someone who is standing where *I* am sees is valuable to me, because that reduces one's pool of mentors to one. Furthermore, I assume that women's studies consists of more than experiences and feelings; messages on this list have given ample evidence of the hard, sophisticated analysis going on in dissertations and elsewhere. Why cannot this aspect of women's studies be conveyed by people of all kinds? I guess I want to lodge a quiet plea for us to focus on people as individuals and not as members of a category to all of whom we sometimes ascribe the same characteristics. That's what Martin Luther King called prejudice. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jun 91 22:13:10 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Florence Subject: Re: men teaching women studies In-Reply-To: Message of WED, 12 JUN 91 22:02:57 EDT from Sorry Ann I still don't see that your point(s) are comparable! If you think they are, well maybe that is my point. I think we have (generically speaking) used many an example that does not compare with the discussion at hand. We have compared languages, history, political science etc., to fit the paradigm of discussion. In doing so we have lost (or at least watered down) the major point in question. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jun 91 22:45:42 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Florence Ginsburg Subject: Re: men teaching women's studies In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 12 Jun 91 20:40:00 CDT from Michael says that no one is arguing that differences don't count, I think that some have argued this point, and that differences are un-important. I say that not relating to the full experience 'waters-down' the message that Women's studies is attempting to convey. I think this is very important to teaching such courses. This would not be true of teaching English, Economic s etc.. Allow me to give an example. This was related to me by a former colleague who is a black man. I foolishly was of the impression that some prejudice subsides if one becomes successful, as in his case. Not so! When he drives through a white-middle-class neighborhood he at times is followed by the police. Why? Two reasons (probably more) 1) he is driving a stolen car, (his car is an expensive one) 2)he is a drug king and I will give a third, 3)he is up to no good. I would not have been able to convey this to a Black studies course, because I never experience it, could not fathom this, etc.. This is what would be missing in such "studies" courses. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jun 91 23:18:59 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: VILLERS@OUACCVMB.BITNET Subject: stop mail set wmst-l nomail ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 91 04:14:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: DON'T PANIC HITCHIKER'S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY Subject: Re: Audre Lorde You should be able to get in touch with Audre Lorde through Kitchen Table PRess --the Big Apple. As you know she has been quite ill and curtails events. However, she did do a biggie for a fund raiser in Cambridge last year, For fees contact her agent. She is first rate as a "visitor." Lois ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 91 04:51:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: DON'T PANIC HITCHIKER'S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY Subject: Sorry to... do this over the board but the listserv software keeps bouncing it back. unsubscribe LBRYNES@VAX.CLARKU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 91 10:25:59 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Diane Glazener Florence G. writes: >Replying to Anne Pemberton's posting. >Can we really equate teaching English with that of Women's Studies? >I don't want to be rude, but isn't that comparing apples and oranges? >They are both fruit, but quite different, yes? No? Both fruit, yes. Quite different, NO! At Va Tech (Blacksburg, VA) the Women's Studies not only was born of the English Dept. but draws the majority of its instructors from English. The study of contemporary literature, or Victorian, or Edwardian, or Chaucerian, presents a picture of the social, cultural, individual, beliefs of that particular time period. History is written by MEN about MEN and is HIStory. To get an inkling of HERstory for any period or culture one must investigate the literature (or women's diaries) of the time/place. The Wife of Bath in Chaucer's _Canterbury Tales_ is one prime example: she is a very strong female/feminist character; the writings of Radclyffe Hall, May Sinclair, and Charlotte Gilman are portraits of the perception of women in Britain and the U.S. at the turn of the century and the 1920s. The points-of-view presented in this literature reveal to a 1990s audience not only how women were perceived by their society but also how they perceived themselves. So, no, Florence, English and Womens Studies are far from being "apples and oranges." Rather, the study of literature can and does enlighten and teach about Women's Studies. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 91 10:50:18 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Florence In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 13 Jun 91 10:25:59 EDT from Okay, Okay, I have heard all the points about the pros and cons! Allow me to pose another question, how about women teaching men's studies, or as in more realistic circumstances, 'the psychology of men?' I don't think there is such a course at least not in a majority of places of higher ed. Should women teach such course (s), or better yet would women have equal access to such course offerings? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 91 10:53:55 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Bronwyn Subject: Re: men teaching women's studies In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 12 Jun 91 20:40:00 CDT from No one, no matter what category they fit into, is an exact replica of anyone. That seems clear. Also it seems clear that anyone can learn (as in recieve information which promotes growth) from almost anyone, including those who are "different". If not, lesbians and gays would have to be the most uneducated beings on this planet, seeing as how most academicians are straight, and most o f the ones who aren't seem (from my limited perspective) to spend most of their time proving they are. Yes, of course I've learned from the male professors I'v e had! In fact, my "one mentor" is actually a white straight male.{ None of this changes my opinion that women's studies CORE COURSES should be taught by women, or possibly by team teaching. Again, I say this for political reasons--what it means to a female student, especially one who wishes to become a scholar to see a woman in that position of power. To see a particular woman's voice and experience empowered. It isn't that her experience is identical to mine (though there are areas of common ground, important ones.) It isn't that she has to be identical to me to impart wisdom, knowledge, etc. It's not a matter of imparting anything. When I see a feminist woman in such a position of power, teaching a course which by its very existence implies that women's experiences and voices are important, I stop "licking my wounds" and rise up in power myself. I once again see my experiences, my voices, as important because I can imagine myself into her position. Bronwyn ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 91 11:40:27 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: diane glazener More on English and Women's Studies: Virginia Tech has just announced the new Women's Studies Program Coordinator. She is Ann Kilkelly, currently an associate professor of *ENGLISH* at Transylvania University. She'll begin here at VaTech in August. She holds B.A., M.A., and Ph.D. degrees, in English. About psychology of men courses: at VaTech we do have such a course. It *IS* taught by a man, but he is the individual who pushed for the course to be offered. Interested women are of course welcome to take the class (one of the students who works for me took it this past spring). We also have Gender Roles courses (team taught, mixed genders). And a women's studies dept a degree in which is not yet available but it may be taken as one concentration of three for a Liberal Arts degree. Ditto Black Studies (by which of course I mean People of Color). So, for a University which is much more well know (and well funded) for Engineering and other sciences, our Humanities concentration is a rather powerful and subversive contingent. Although, perhaps, NOT very affirming for the women faculty without tenure as many of the deans etc are still good-ol-boys. But the times they are a changing. We don't go down without a very LOUD (strident? big smile) fight. diane glazener glaze@vtvm2 (bitnet) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 91 14:18:23 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: SBROWN@ASC.UPENN.EDU Subject: re: RE: according to whom re-revisited BKG: Many analyses of women and language behavior suggest the reading that "dominant male culture" finds active, assertive, fill in your appropriate adjective, women "strident". This is also an extension of particular regional cultures. I notice you are posting from nyu, as a southern woman who has relocated to the northeast, these notions of stridency are very real, I can assure you. Its taken me six years of constant awareness and cultural observation to help me see that "yankees" (and particularly women) are not only not rude, but that "rudeness" itself is one of those culturally constituted notions of social control. And I do believe that even though I'm referring to geographic rather than gender differences, that even these symbolically expressed forms of oppression are filtered through gender hierarchies. SBROWN@asc.penn.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 91 14:27:13 CST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Kris In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 13 Jun 91 10:50:18 EDT from On Thu, 13 Jun 91 10:50:18 EDT Florence said: >Okay, Okay, I have heard all the points about the pros and cons! Allow >me to pose another question, how about women teaching men's studies, or >as in more realistic circumstances, 'the psychology of men?' I don't think >there is such a course at least not in a majority of places of higher ed. >Should women teach such course (s), or better yet would women have equal >access to such course offerings? I am an undergraduate at Washington University in St. Louis. We have a class called/or similar to 'the psychology of men'. It is offered through the Women's Studies department and as far as I know all faculty in this department are female. Knowing some of the professors in the department, there are some of them who would probably be excellent teaching this course while others I expect would be horrible, because of their outlook on life, politics, gender, etc. So here we go, once again the big answer is "It depends". One great thing about the "psychology of men" class is it tends to attract a lot more males than other women studies courses do. Perhaps this offers an introduction which leads to interest in other courses? I've seen it happen with people I know, perhaps it is a trend. I would view such an introduction as a GOOD thing. Of course this depends upon which professor teaches the class. Just my contribution, Kris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 91 16:33:20 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Bronwyn Subject: Re: New Book Series In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 12 Jun 91 14:16:00 EDT from Hi, Joan. This might be a silly question, but exactly how does one unsubscribe? I'm leaving my job tomorrow and I'd like to unsubscribe before I do. Please let me know. Thanks. Bronwyn University of Florida ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 91 17:24:01 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: MRMAHER@SUVM.BITNET Subject: Re: men teaching women's studies In-Reply-To: Your MAIL dated Thu, 13 Jun 91 10:53:55 EDT Women's studies was created to give women a voice in a place that they did not have one. One were they were not silenced. In order for this to happen it had to be a woman-centered discipline. Remember that all others are male-centered. They come from a male perspective. Feminist mean a woman's perspective. If our culture and its insititutions were not sexist, racist, heterosexist, etc., we would not need a created space to chat (i.e. women's studies, African-American studies, etc.) Michelle Maher ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 91 19:36:00 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: KIRSHENBLATT@NYUACF.BITNET Subject: Re: men teaching women's studies To Bronwyn: Yes, women should be in positions of power. They should be teachin g whatever they wish. But that does not give anyone a monopoly on the teachi ng of particular subjects. The implications are vast. BKG ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 91 19:43:00 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: KIRSHENBLATT@NYUACF.BITNET Subject: Re: RE: according to whom re-revisited SBrown: Well taken. "Silencing" covers such a multitude of "sins" with such feminist righteousness that having been sounded there's nothing else to say. Ditto with stridency--issues here of culture, class, context, etc. BKG ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 91 19:47:00 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: KIRSHENBLATT@NYUACF.BITNET Subject: who can teach what Kris: You signal a fundamental problem, enough to dismantle entire disciplines- -to whit anthropology. Trobiand Islands teach the Melanesia course, Yoruba t each Yoruba culture, Poles for Poland, etc. Interesting? BKG ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jun 91 21:55:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Arnie Kahn Subject: Let's change the subject There are so many other things to talk about except "who should teach." In an Intro. to WS (or similar course) do you find diaries, journals, personal reaction papers, etc. useful? If you use these techniques, how do you grade them? More generally, what have you found effective in eliciting the "click." Arnie fac_aska@jmuvax (bitnet) fac_askahn@vax1.acs.jmu.edu (internet) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 91 00:08:16 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Florence Subject: Re: Let's change the subject In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 13 Jun 91 21:55:00 EST from Arnie suggests we change the subject. I wonder why, especially now that a new twist was put on the question of who should teach what! Is it just coincidence or ......?? I don't see why we can't have a number of topics/subjects going on at the same time. Just a thought. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 91 09:14:35 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: DO Andrew Callahan Subject: Re: Let's change the subject Arnie asked about journals, reaction papers, diaries, etc. I recently took a course entitled Gender and Communication in which we were required to keep a journal and write our reactions to the various readings and class discussions, presentations, exercises, etc. The journal was for me a *significant* enhancement to the course. It provided a place to make comments that there weren't time for in class discussions and to make comments that one would rather not have quite so public. The instructors (the course was team taught) required the journal to pass the course, but otherwise did not grade it. One semester before this I took a graduate seminar (media studies) in which the instructor required proposition papers from the required readings. These were limited to one page in length and served to stimulate discussion on the topics. These were graded based on the soundness of the argument the relevance of the argument, and the degree to which the paper provoked thought and discussion. The class met once each week, and a proposition paper was due each week. All of the proposition papers combined made up twenty percent (20%) of the grade. I found both techniques (journal and proposition papers) to be very useful to me as a student. Andrew Callahan callahan@sunburn.ec.usf.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 91 09:40:01 CDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Mary Kay Schleiter Subject: difficult students I teach courses which are cross-listed as sociology and women's studies. Some students who take the courses as a part of a sociology major resent the fact that they are forced to take a women's studies course. I always have a small group of students in the back of the class who glare at me and tell jokes to one another during class. They write awful things on course evaluations, like "the professor is unqualified" accompanied by comments such as "too much focus on women." Fortunately their terrible evaluations have so far not hurt me, since I also get some very high ones. Now, I suspect that students from this group (who I also had in statistics this semester) were responsible for some major vandalism to my office. I have no proof, just rumors. I also fear that my chair is beginning to believe that the women's studies component of these courses is more trouble than it's worth, and possibly hurting the major (although I have attracted a large number of majors, more than anyone else, almost all of them are women). Although I believe in what I'm doing, I feel like I'm being punished for it. I'm also a little scared. I am now in a temporary office in a high security area, living out of boxes, but I worry that when I move back to a regular faculty office I won't be safe. Has anyone had similar experiences? Mary Kay mks@vacs.uwp.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 91 09:49:55 CDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Mary Kay Schleiter Subject: difficult students, again I just want to make my major worries clear. I'm worried that my work in women's studies may hurt my tenure chances. I'm worried that I'm losing my nerve, and may cave in to the pressures and become more conventional. I'm worried about my safety and the safety of my papers, books, and files. I'm worried that I'm not good enough -- I need to find a way to either ignore or change difficult students. Mary Kay mks@vacs.uwp.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 91 10:58:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Arnie Kahn Subject: Mary Kay's Problems As part of a project for the American Psychological Association's Committee on Women in Psychology, Sheryle Gallant and I wrote a paper entitled, "Maximizing Women's Chances for Promotion and Tenure in Academia." It will form part of a bigger publication by the Committee which will also have a section on what to do if you're denied tenure. If Mary Kay or anyone else would like a copy of this paper, send me your U.S. Mail address and I'll send you a copy. Mary Kay's situation sound horrendous. Arnie Kahn - fac_askahn@jmuvax (bitnet) fac_askahn@vax1.acs.jmu.edu (internet) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 91 08:25:38 PDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Betty J Glass Subject: combo courses Has anyone taught a combined women's studies/ethnic studies course? If so, what was it called? What methodology/resources were used? What was the response of the students? Would you do it again? glass@equinox.unr.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 91 11:42:40 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Sarah Spurgin Subject: women's periodicals As a reference librarian and women's studies selector, I'd be interested in hearing what role you think popular women's periodicals should play in a library's women's studies collection. G.K. Hall has just published a new Women's Studies Index, which indexes Family Circle, Ladies Home Journal, Glamour, Good Housekeeping, and McCalls, in addition to Genders, Trivia, Signs, Women's Studies, and the other journals one would expect to find. Would you expect to find these journals in a research collection? If a financial choice had to be made, would you rather see these popular periodicals than more specialized journals such as Hot Wire or Minerva? Sarah Spurgin spurgin@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 91 10:46:00 CDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: cliff staples Subject: Re: difficult students, again In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 14 Jun 91 09:49:55 CDT from Mary Kay, I've gotten the occasional hate note or obscene phone call, but never anything like what you are experiencing. Sounds awful. If there's anything any of us can do, just holler (that sounds lame doesn't it?). Also, if you don't get the kind of support you need from your Dept. or office, what about ASA? from another sociologist, Cliff Staples ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 91 12:59:14 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: MIKE Subject: Re: difficult students Mary Kay, I have a little experience from the Chair's viewpoint and a lot with, ah, very irritated students (I won't tell them what to do.) Assess, as best you can, whether the discomfort of the Chair is (or ends up) directed toward you rather than the problem ... In the early 70's I hired 2 women into a Management Department in a (very traditional) College of Business ... both were exceptional ... both created more headaches than any other 10 problems ... actually unfair, they didn't *create* the headaches, their presence in the midst of a bunch of very traditional males (about half as productive) had the men creating the headaches. The best of the 2, when she left, asked if I would replace her with another female; I said "no" ... the costs were just too high (we have since become friends again.) Your Chair *might* be looking at the problems this way, i.e. think you are wonderful but still unwilling to "redo" the situation. Re hostile students ... I have found that this problem can carry and build from semester to semester *but* that current students don't have effective networks that carry forward ... step out for a term and you may be able to "start over." I have also found a gender difference in "risk." Males, while much more prone to violence don't have much of an attention span ... stalling, etc. works very well with them ... a female (I mean student, of course), once she undertakes the task of "getting you" is a serious problem and calls for careful "deprogramming." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 91 13:16:21 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Florence Subject: Re: difficult students In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 14 Jun 91 12:59:14 -0400 from Mike writes "once she sets out to get you" something something, careful deprogramming is called for. Mike can you explain about the deprogramming? I understand the term, but I am not sure how you're applying it. I had this happen to me, i.e. a student trying to create problems, and was not sure how to handle it. She actually waited for me after class. As it turns out the class was over at 9:30, and seeing her outside really spooked me. I reported it to the chair and she was brought in for a meeting, I just would like to know what you mean by the 'deprogramming'? Oops that is 9:30pm. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 91 13:29:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Arnie Kahn Subject: this list has been mentioned before. here's the complete scoop This is information about another feminist e-mail list and information about how to join. Arnie ****************** WHY WE'RE HERE -------------- This group exists to provide a shared communication channel for feminists around the world, for the discussion of issues both profound and mundane that matter to us. Because we are drawn together by a common belief in the strength, competency, and value of women and women's perspectives, much of what we discuss reflects that shared set of core values. And what enriches the discussions is both the support that is expressed for others *and* the diversity of beliefs that are expressed and respected within this forum. WHO WE ARE ---------- We are students, professors, managers, engineers, scientists, psychologists, administrative staff, ..., parents, and mates. Some read from campus or their place of work, while others read at home on terminals or through printouts, brought home by thoughtful partners. We are women & men of many colors, spiritual centers, and socio-cultural backgrounds. Our readers span the English-speaking globe, including Australia, India, the UK, Canada, and the USA, as well as areas where English is a learned secondary language, such as China. HOW TO PARTICIPATE ------------------ How To Post ----------- If you have anything to contribute, send your comments to femail@hplabs.hp.com or (less preferred) hp!hplabs!femail If the message is just for the moderator in her role as moderator, but not for distribution, please mark it as such. (Don't be subtle: Mark the Subject of the message "NOT FOR DISTRIBUTION".) The moderator collates messages and distributes to the distribution list with another alias. How To Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Change Address --------------------------------------------- All requests to participate or terminate participation should be made to femail-requests%hpldlh@hplabs.hp.com Similarly, if your email address is going to change, please make the request for change to femail-requests. Conventions ----------- Your message to the group is rarely touched in any way by the moderator. 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We do have periodic discussions about what values we share as feminists, including shared thoughts and feelings on what it means to be a feminist. We differ in our terminology (e.g., some prefer to be called "humanists" or "naturists"), and in our passions. ROLE OF THE MODERATOR --------------------- The moderator provides: (1) timely redistribution of messages, to maintain a sense of "dialogue" among participants. (2) corresponding with active contributors when she believes their messages do not meet the "ground rules" for the forum. This may mean refusing to post a message, or requesting that the submitter rephrase or rethink the submission. (3) requesting input from the readership on issues related to the management of the forum, then making decisions & communicating them to the readership. ROLE OF THE DISTRIBUTOR ----------------------- The distributor for femail is the keeper of the distribution database. She adds and deletes recipients by direct request from the individual. Requests should be sent to femail-requests%hpldlh@hplabs.hp.com. It is impossible to provide instant response to requests for addition, deletion, or update of mail address, so please give us as much notice as possible. Normally, we hope to get requested updates for distribution accomplished within a month of the request. The distributor also handles bounced mail. This is no trivial task, given the complexity of the forwarding mechanism we've inherited. (Some day when we have nothing else to do, we hope to fix this baroque situation.) The distributor contacts our forwarding list administrators, who must update their lists and let the distributor know when the person has been added/ deleted. New subscribers will be sent this message. OBTAINING PAST MESSAGES ----------------------- Both Ed Hall and Robby Kates have been keeping archives and will be happy to send you a reasonable number of back issues. Here are the addresses: edhall@rand.org randvax!edhall robby@lzatt.att.com att!lzatt!robby Please be encouraged to participate in this ongoing dialogue. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 91 14:22:19 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: SBROWN@ASC.UPENN.EDU Subject: re: Mary Kay's Problems Please send a copy of the paper about women & tenure chances to: Lane Browning, 2044 Eastern Parkway, Louisville, KY 40204. Thanks. SBROWN ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 91 21:26:00 EET Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "PAULIINA TUUNANEN (UTL)" GET WMST-L ACT ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 91 21:32:00 EET Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "PAULIINA TUUNANEN (UTL)" PRV ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 91 21:33:00 EET Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "PAULIINA TUUNANEN (UTL)" INDEX WMST-L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 91 21:35:00 EET Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "PAULIINA TUUNANEN (UTL)" ALL ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 91 21:39:00 EET Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "PAULIINA TUUNANEN (UTL)" all own v ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 91 13:53:07 CDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Mary Kay Schleiter Subject: Re: difficult students, again Thanks for the support. I don't think the sorts of things I've experienced are that unusual. My department has been very supportive, but the chair is very conservative and I do worry about the "blame the victim" syndrome. The university administration has been very supportive. In fact, my temporary office is in the chancellor's area. Other women's studies faculty are giving me a lot of moral support. I don't know what the ASA could do. I think that the main problem here is similar to what is happening all over these days -- violence perpetrated by people who are afraid that the world is changing. I understand that there is a small skinhead group here, but a few people can do a lot of damage. Mary Kay mks@vacs.uwp.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 91 14:57:00 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: JEJ@PITTVMS.BITNET Subject: Re: Mary Kay's Problems please send a copy of the paper about women and tenure to: Janine Janosky University of Pittsburgh M200 Scaife Hall Pittsburgh PA 15261 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 91 12:33:38 -0900 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "Shana Hormann @ Juneau, AK." Subject: Re: difficult students Mary Kay, I have not heard of this kind of violence here at the University of Alaska-Juneau. When teaching Human Sexuality (Psychology 375), I had a few students who would roll their eyes, sigh out loud, etc. whenever sexual orientation (specifically homosexuality) was the topic for discussion. THAT was hard enough. I hope you are no longer violated and able to feel safe. Shana Hormann JFSLH@Alaska ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 91 12:34:48 -0900 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "Shana Hormann @ Juneau, AK." Subject: Re: difficult students, again Shana here, again. I met with each of the "difficult" students individually. I talked with my advisor/supervisor and made my concerns clear. Fortunately, she backed me all the way. No doubt about it, Support Helps. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 91 16:39:51 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: MIKE Subject: Re: difficult students re "deprogramming" ... I don't even know if the term is correct, a friend of mine uses it and it seems to fit ... I was thinking of (please excuse the coming cynicism) of how easy it is to distract males that have, for what ever reason, undertaken a "kill the bastard" behavior track ... and how effectively females maintain focus on their objective and that it is fairly difficult to get them off the track ... it's almost like a post-hypnotic suggestion ... the normal university "buffers" let them talk themselves into boredom with Chairs, Deans and Ombudsmen (persons?) doesn't work well. (Please recognize that we're dealing with emotional distress here and, presumably, not a fully legitimate complaint) Hence, deprogramming in this sense would be to break the trail/track the person has emotionally committed to pursue (until the "target" is destroyed.) MK ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 91 12:50:33 -0900 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "Shana Hormann @ Juneau, AK." Subject: Re: Mary Kay's Problems Please send a copy of the paper to: Shana Hormann UAS-Juneau 11120 Glacier Highway Juneau, AK. 99811 Thanks! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jun 91 16:50:57 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: MIKE Subject: Re: difficult students, again Mary Kay, I checked with our Women's Center, Administration/Personnel, Police and Student Services ... we (apparently) have had nothing similar to this ... maybe even several sex/har. cases but nothing like you describe. Maybe the population is different ... we have 26K students total and the Wm.St. program is a miniscule minor and wouldn't have ;anybody by surprise. Seems like an "expectancy" problem at best to be dealt with prior to registration or the first day with options (or how about different term papers or anysort of option these people can personally select.) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jun 91 01:26:00 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: KIRSHENBLATT@NYUACF.BITNET Subject: Re: Mary Kay's Problems Please send copy of paper about women and tenure to Barbara Kirshenblatt-Gimblet t, 231 Bowery, NYC 10002. Thanx. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jun 91 17:59:00 MST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: HERR_B@CUBLDR.COLORADO.EDU Subject: Re: Mary Kay's Problems please send the paper oncerning women and tenure to : Elizabeth Herr 1670 Orchard Ave. Boulder, CO 80304 Thank you. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jun 91 21:13:00 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Joan Korenman Subject: Reducing the volume of mail A number of people have written to me in the last few days to say that they are signing off WMST-L because they can't deal with the high volume of mail. As a result, I'm trying to find ways to reduce unnecessary postings to the list. One way would be to send requests for copies of papers directly to the person from whom you're requesting the paper rather than to WMST-L. Indeed, MOST responses directed primarily to a specific person should be sent privately to that person. Because some mail systems do not include the poster's name and e-mail address, my suggestion can only work if everyone includes his/her name and email address at the end of every posting. Thanks for your understanding and cooperation. Joan Korenman Internet: korenman@umbc2.umbc.edu Bitnet: korenman@umbc ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jun 91 21:40:00 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Joan Korenman Subject: Call for Proposals Conference: "Educating for Pluralism: Exploring Our Differences and Affirming Our Ties." San Jose, California, Nov. 7-9, 1991. Sponsored by Research on Women and Education (A Special Interest Group of the American Educational Research Association). The theme for this meeting focuses on increasing the awareness of the diversity of women's lives and valuing our differences as we create educational experiences sensitive to varied contexts. We encourage participatory presentations representing diverse perspectives including both practitioners and researchers on this theme and other topics related to women's education. Possible formats for presentations include: work in progress and completed work; interactive discussions; symposia with questions planned for discussion; panel discussions with varied perspectives on one focus; paper sessions with individual grouped papers; workshops; and conversation hours with one person reporting informally on work with substantial discussion. Part of Saturday's program will include focussed discussion groups to identify educational issues for all women. Possible groups are African American, Asian American, Hispanic, Native American, Lesbian, Differently Abled, European American, Arab American, Jewish American, Working Class. You will be able to select one group in which to participate and we invite self-nominations for facilitators for these or other groups. From the discussion groups we will construct a document describing the educational issues affecting distinctive groups and creating commonalities where present. CALL FOR PROPOSALS - DUE JUNE 30, 1991 Completed proposals and requests for more information concerning the proposal's format should be sent to: Phyllis K. Abell Family Research Laboratory University of New Hampshire Durham, NH 03824; (603) 742-6921 Further conference information can be obtained from: Joanne Rossi Becker Dept. of Mathematics & Computer Science San Jose State University San Jose, CA 95192; (408) 924-5112 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jun 91 07:22:00 PST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: ANTHONY SHARON Subject: Mary Kay's situation Mary Kay- While your situation is truly an uncomfortable one, it is not new. Discrimination and harassment comes in many forms. In the classroom situation, you authority is an instructor is being challenged. You did not mention how you are dealing with this "peanut gallery", but I have noticed a couple of good responses on the board. I have always believed in dealing with issues directly, this includes hecklers in a group, by giving them an opportunity to state their grievance/gripe to the group directly, and not by snide sodo voice asides. Then offering the entire group to discuss their expectations of the course. I would keep this limited to one class meeting. Another possibility is for the first several meetings, assign seating- say alphabetically. You can give the reason that you have trouble attaching names to faces. This most likely will separate "trouble- makers". If harassers are alone, they are less likely to act up (mob mentality). I am more concerned that you feel unsafe, and further, that you would change your approach because of this. "Terror" has been used to control women and other conquered people for ages, and I hate to see it be effective. Having been vandalized, harassed, and threatened a number of times (though my office has never been a target, my home has been) I have tried to come up with other alternatives rather than changing who I am or what I express. In your case, it might be worthwhile to raise the issue of building security. If unauthorized folks have access to the building when there is no one a round, then more than your office is at risk. It is an unsafe condition which needs to be addressed. Obviously, the chancelor's area where you are now takes a different approach to building access. In terms of your concern that the department chair will not give you tenure, I would once again deal with her/him directly. Perhaps seek her/his advice on the situation with your classes, and how they might be avoided. Also, at your school, does the chair even make this decision? I would find out who, or what group does, and express these concerns early along with what steps you are taking to control or mitigate the situation. I would want it on record that I am actively involved in the solution of the problem, rather than being a victim of the situation. Your situation *IS* scary, but don't let the fear define you. Find what support you can, and actively address the concerns. This is *NOT* a personal problem, and I don't think you should address it a such. Good luck! Sharon Anthony Sharon Anthony [Portland Community College] ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jun 91 12:05:47 -0900 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "Shana Hormann @ Juneau, AK." Subject: Re: Call for Proposals I would like more conference information. Thank you. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jun 91 12:06:40 -0900 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "Shana Hormann @ Juneau, AK." Subject: Re: Call for Proposals Is there a computer address for Phyllis Abell and/or Joanne Rossi Becker, that we could communicate directly through e-mail? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jun 91 18:10:00 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Joan Korenman Subject: More About Call for Proposals At the risk of adding to the mail volume I'm trying to reduce, I feel compelled to acknowledge that I goofed. I failed to heed my own instructions. As a favor to one of the conference organizers (who is not yet on e-mail), I posted yesterday's Call for Proposals. But since it wasn't my announcement and I had no more information than what I had posted, I didn't include my name. So those people whose mail systems fail to tell them who the original sender is and merely say the mail is from WMST-L had no way of knowing how to make private inquiries. Mea culpa. Joan Korenman Internet: korenman@umbc2.umbc.edu Bitnet: korenman@umbc ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 91 08:17:00 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Joan Korenman Subject: Job Announcement The Political Science Department and Women's Studies Program at the University of Utah invite applications for a tenure-track joint appointment at the Assistant Professor level to begin September 1992. We are interested in candidates with a strong commitment to feminist scholarship and who are able to teach one or more of the traditional subfields of political science. Applicants should send a letter of application, curriculum vitae, a writing sample, evidence of competency to teach within the Women's Studies core curriculum and Political Science discipline, and have three letters of recommendation sent to: Joint Search Committee, Department of Political Science, OSH 252, University of Utah, Salt Lake City, UT 84112. Review of applications will begin on November 15, 1991 and continue until the position is filled. ************************** NOTE: I've posted this announcement on behalf of someone at the University of Utah who is not yet on e-mail. I have no more information, so please address all inquiries to the Search Committee at the address given above. Thanks. Joan Korenman Internet: korenman@umbc2.umbc.edu Bitnet: korenman@umbc ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 91 10:18:37 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: P_MURPHY@UNHH.UNH.EDU Subject: RE: Mary Kay's Problems please send a copy of the tenure paper to Pat Murphy IPSSR Hood House UNH Durham, N.H. 03824 Thanks, I tried to reply directly to arnie Kahn, and got a message that the address is wrong?? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 91 08:50:00 CST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: UAHEBP01@UAHVAX1.BITNET Subject: women's periodicals As a new subscriber to WMST-L, I was interested to see the question from Sarah Spurgin regarding women's periodicals, especially since I am also an academic librarian. All of us are coming up against hard decisions on which periodicals and indexes have lasting value and which are fair candidates for cancellation as funds become tighter and tighter. The Women's Studies Index she mentions apparently tries to cover all bases, including some popular "women's magazines" like McCall's, Good Housekeeping, etc. Her question is one we have struggled with in other contexts several times -- how much of this is appropriate material for an academic library, even for recreational reading use? It is my feeling that, other factors being equal, general women's magazines are not appropriate to an academic library collection; they should be proviu ded by a public library collection. However, if you subscribe to some "men's magazines" (i.e., Sports Illustrated, GQ, Playboy) these should be balanced by some less serious titles for women. Equally, when funding brings into question the quality of the whole collection, it is only fair to cut some or all of each. Definitely, they should be sacrificed before the more serious titles in the subject. When it comes to indexes, their coverage is and should be broader, including as many titles in the field as possible, since no library has them all. The question then becomes comparing the coverage and cost of various indexes with a given library's holdings for practical value when cuts are necessary. So in Sarah's situation, I would compare "Women's Studies Index" with other titles, such as "Women Studies Abstracts" before making the final decision. Elizabeth Pollard, Systems Librarian, Univ. of Ala., Huntsville Bitnet: UAHEBP01@UAHVAX1 Internet: UAHEBP01@ASNUAH.ASN.NET ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 91 14:42:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: HENKING@HWS.BITNET Subject: Re: Books for Women's Studies Courses i have used gerd brantenberg's egalia's daughters also to great success; i find it very useful in depicting the ways in which gender based oppression affects men and women differently (for those who don't know the novel, it is about a social order in which men are oppressed and women are the oppressors. it is written from a feminist point of view and does an excellent job of mimicking the history of european feminisms (including, e.g., the role of marxism in the rise of certain portions of feminism in europe. .) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 91 14:43:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: HENKING@HWS.BITNET Subject: Re: according to whom re-revisited jaren -- re "asilencing" see also adrienne rich's work on lies, secrets and silences. . . ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 91 15:03:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: HENKING@HWS.BITNET Subject: Re: Notes from a (Male) Partisan in regard to feminist pedagogy, see women's studies quarterly, volume xv, numbers 3 and 4 fall/winter 1987. (it is a special issue on feminist pedagogy.) susan henking bitnet address: henking@hws ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 91 16:43:04 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Allan Hunter Subject: Re: Books for Women's Studies Courses In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 18 Jun 91 14:42:00 EST from RE: novels depicting a reverse-world in which males are oppressed by females See also science-fiction novel *The Ruins of Isis*, Marian Zimmer Bradley; a reversal of power (matriarchal planet) in which many gender differences that exist in our society remain intact but the valuing of them is altered. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jun 91 14:10:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Arnie Kahn Subject: Necessary Women's Studies Journals As we begin to develop our Women's Studies program, we will have to do some hard lobbying for relevant journals. This will be very difficult because, like most universities these days, we have financial difficulties and the library is cutting back on journal subscriptions. I would like input regarding which journals you feel are essential for students and faculty to do research and scholarship in Women's Studies. It may be a good idea to respond to me personally rather than to the list. I will create a file and post your choices to the list. Arnie fac_askahn@jmuvax1 (bitnet) or fac_askahn@vax1.acs.jmu.edu (internet) ^ ^ (note the underscore, not a hyphen, in the address) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jun 91 15:30:37 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Thomas Sullivan Sociology Subject: BOOKS ON WOMEN AND HEALTH I am looking for a book to use in a sociology/anthropology course entitled HEALTH, SOCIETY, AND CULTURE. The book should deal with women's health issues, particularly the subordinate status of women and how this affects their treatment by medicine and the health care system. I want to use it to illustrate differential treatment based on cultural/gender variation and the continuing white, male complexion of the health care system. I am currently using Gena Corea's The Hidden Malpractice: How American Medicine Mistreats Women, and it is excellent but getting a little dated. It should be a paperback so my students can afford it as a supplement. Any suggestions can be sent to my bitnet address below or posted. Thomas J. Sullivan Department of Sociology and Social Work Northern Michigan University Marquette, MI 49855 bitnet: FATJ@NMUMUS ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jun 91 14:48:00 CDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Sandra Coyner Subject: Necessary Women's Studies Journals Re: Arnie Kahn's question about which are the most valuable journals in Women's Studies: Once you have a list, you still have the problem of convincing the lib that they need to spend on Women's Studies, instead of all the other fields clamoring for support. Some arguments I have used with some success: Women's Studies is a new field and has many new, young journals. The library is jusitified in subscribing to new journals in WS even when it has to cut subscriptions in older, more established fields--argue that this is necessary to move toward equity. Most important to librarians seems to be comparing the "coverage" of the various collections. Look in _Women's Studies Abstracts_ and in _Feminist Periodicals_ (published by Susan Searing at U. Wisc. System--- Hi, susan, if you're still on this list!). See the many periodicals listed there. Argue that the library needs to have a substantial number of these because these are the ones students will be finding in their searches and calling on interlibrary loan if you don't have them. Or argue that you should have at least so-and-so many of the ones that are indexed and abstracted. Really, for your list of essential journals you can go a long way with the 25 to 35 that are covered by the _Abstracts_. Be sure to check several RECENT issues because the journals covered change from issue to issue. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jun 91 09:14:41 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Diane Subject: Re: Necessary Women's Studies Journals In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 19 Jun 91 14:48:00 CDT from Another point of leverage which tends to work with the VaTech library is to bring in other departments. For example, the English department often makes use of Women's Studies journals for feminist scholarship. I've used them many times in my work in feminist literary criticism. Diane Glazener GLAZE@VTVM2.BITNET ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jun 91 08:39:00 CST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: UAHEBP01@UAHVAX1.BITNET Subject: Women's Studies journals I find it interesting, and a little puzzling, that so many of you feel you have to try nefarious "angles" to get the library to buy women's studies materials. Have you considered getting to know your librarian(s) and finding out their opinions on women's studies? Many of them are women, I'm sure, as I am, who have had to put up with as much nonsense as the rest of us. In addition, it has been my experience that many librarians are activists at heart. We are just getting a women's studies program going on this campus, and there three of us on the Library Faculty who have been active from the beginning in advocating women's studies. One of the things I have done for the committee was to compile a bibliography of reference materials already in the library collections, including journals, and I was surprised at how many we had already collected. Maybe some of you could enlist the help of your librarian(s) to advantage. Just a few suggestions. Elizabeth Pollard, Systems Librarian, Univ. of Ala. in Huntsville Bitnet: UAHEBP01@UAHVAX1 Internet: UAHEBP01@ASNUAH.ASN.NET ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jun 91 10:39:23 GMT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: Linda Lopez McAlister/Hypatia Subject: Arab Feminist Scholar Sought I am looking for a reader for a paper on Philosophical aspects of Arab Feminism for Hypatia: A Journal Of Feminist Philosophy. Any volunteers or suggestions? (Bitnet: dllafaa@cfrvm Internet: dllafaa@cfrvm.cfr.usf.edu) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jun 91 08:40:18 GMT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: Linda Lopez McAlister/Hypatia Subject: SEWSA Call For Papers The Southeastern Women's Studies Assn. (SEWSA) will meet at the Univesity of South Florida March 12-15, 1992. The planning committee invites proposals for papers, posters, workshops, and round table discussions in women's studies and related fields. Proposals should reflect the diversity of women in regard to race; class; ethnicity; age; nationality; physical, intellectual, emotional impairment; and sexual identity. Proposals from both scholarly and community- based groups are welcome and may focus on research, theory, applied practice, policy and/or teaching approaches. We welcome a variety of styles and experimentation in presentation format. Interested participants should submit an abstract of 500 words no later than October 15, 1991. If you plan a panel or workshop, please include the names of all participants along with individual abstracts. Submit proposals to: Janice Snook, Women's Studies Program, Univer- sity of South Florida, 4202 E.Fowler Ave., Tampa, FL 33620-8350. sity of South (Bitnet: dllafaa@cfrvm Internet: dllafaa@cfrvm.cfr.usf.edu) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jun 91 09:00:26 GMT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: Linda Lopez McAlister/Hypatia Subject: Hypatia Call for Papers in Lesbian Philosophy Call for papers for a Special Issue of HYPATIA: A JOURNAL OF FEMINIST PHILOSOPHY on Lesbian Philosophy, with a focus on ethics and issues relevant to ethics (such as work on the emotions, on significant works of lesbian literature, or on historically interesting lesbian thinkers). Articles exploring the idea of a lesbian ethic, responding to reecent work in lesbian ethics, or articulating ethical issues or concepts from a lesbian perspective are especially welcome. Lesbian philosophy in the traditional areas (ethics, social and political philosophy, aesthetics, epistemology, metaphysics, etc.) will be considered, as well as lesbian philosophy whose "area" is unclassifiable in traditional terms. Articles with a historical orientation are also particularly welcome, as are articles reflecting philosophically upon the experience of lesbians of color, Jewish lesbians, working class lesbians, disabled and differently abled lesbians, older lesbians and other realms of lesbian experience worthy of philosphical reflection. Send submissions in quadruplicate to: Claudia Card, Philosophy, University of Wisconsin, Madison, WI 53706. Deadline: January 10, 1992. (Bitnet: dllafaa@cfrvm Internet: dllafaa@cfrvm.cfr.usf.edu) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jun 91 08:43:47 MDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: chuchryk@HG.ULETH.CA Subject: women composers I have a friend interested in women composers pre-20th century. Any references or citations would be appreciated. Thanks. Pat Chuchryk University of Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada CHUCHRYK@HG.ULETH.CA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jun 91 11:07:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Arnie Kahn Subject: Political Action I hope this is within the bounds of WMST-L. Below is a sample letter which should be sent to your Senators and Representative regarding the recent Supreme Court decision on the Title X "Gag Rule." Please write. ********************************************************* The Honorable ___________ The Honorable ___________ U. S. House of Representatives United States Senate Washington, DC 20515 Washington, DC 20510 Dear Representative __________ : Dear Senator ___________ : As a constitutent in your district, I am writing to urge you to vote to overturn the Rust vs. Sullivan decision, otherwise known as the "Gag Rule." Implementation of the Gag Rule represents an unprecedented government imposition of a particular viewpoint on the speech of health care providers. Psychological research has demonstrated that problem pregnancy counseling can produce positive psychological results and promote informed, intelligent and self-determinative decision making. The Title X family planning program, which serves nearly five million poor and near-poor women annually, is the only proven federal preventive health care program which effectively reduces the incidence of unintended pregnancies, abortion, and sexually transmitted diseases. Implementation of the Gag Rule will cause many of these clinics to lose their funding, funding which in most cases will not be made up for by the state or county in which they are located. I strongly urge you to vote for legislation to overturn the Gag Rule and to oppose any amendments, including those which would require parental notice or consent for minors seeking abortion services. Sincerely, Arnold S. Kahn ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jun 91 13:20:12 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: P_MURPHY@UNHH.UNH.EDU Subject: RE: Political Action In your letters re the "gag rule" you might want to refer to Senate Bill 323 and/or House Resolution (HR) 392. These are the two pieces of legislation introduced to overturn the gag rule. They have had very strong support from congressional members who have been very anti-choice in the past. The letters people write can also be sent to the letters page in your local paper. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jun 91 14:36:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: HENKING@HWS.BITNET Subject: Re: women composers in regard to women composers, i would suggest contacting the ladyslipper music place, located in durham north carolina. they are extremely well stiocked in records, cds and cassettes in various genres of women's music, including women composers. susan henking henking@hws ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jun 91 15:16:00 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Joan Korenman Subject: Pre 20th-Century Women Composers I'm posting the response below from another WMST-L subscriber because it apparently couldn't get through to WMST-L. I'm not sure why. At any rate, the response pertains to the earlier request for information about pre-20th-century women composers. Joan Korenman Internet: korenman@umbc2.umbc.edu Bitnet: korenman@umbc From: mdahms@cosy.uoguelph.ca Date: Fri, 21 Jun 91 13:29:46 EDT To: WMST-L@UMDD.BITNET Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Subject: composers Here are some titles that could be useful: - Women Composers: a Checklist of Works for the Solo Voice. Stewart-green, Miriam. - Women Composers: a Handbook. Stern, Susan. - Women of Notes: 1,000 Women Composers Born Before 1900. Laurence, Anya. - Keyboard Music by Women Composers: a Catalog and Bibliography. Meggett, Joan M. - International Encyclopedia of Women Composers. Cohen, Aaron I. - Black Women Composers: a Genesis. Green, Mildred Denby. For the latest publications check Books in Print under the subject. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jun 91 16:52:03 -0400 Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: susan heald f Subject: re: mary kay's problems Please send a copy of the paper about women and tenure to: Susan Heald Department of Sociology and Anthropology Wlifrid Laurier University Waterloo, Ontario, Canada N2L 3C5 Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jun 91 16:12:06 CDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "dr. joanne gates" Subject: some thoughts Received: by JSUMUS; Wed, 19 Jun 91 18:16:41 CDT Received: by JSUCCVM1 (Mailer R2.07) id 3741; Wed, 19 Jun 91 18:16:54 CST Date: Wed, 19 Jun 91 18:16:54 CST From: Network Mailer Subject: Undelivered mail To: Your mail was not delivered to some or all of its intended recipients for the following reason(s): RSCS rejected mail w/tag: MDD WMST-L .... Is the hostname misspelled? --------------------RETURNED MAIL FILE-------------------- Received: by JSUCCVM1 (Mailer R2.07) id 3740; Wed, 19 Jun 91 18:16:54 CST Received: from JSUMUS (MUSIC) by JSUCCVM1.BITNET (Mailer R2.07) with BSMTP id 3738; Wed, 19 Jun 91 18:16:53 CST Message-Id: <19JUN91.19730432.0007.MUSIC@JSUMUS> Date: Wed, 19 Jun 91 18:16:07 CDT From: "dr. joanne gates" To: Subject: tenure paper request Please send a copy of women and tenure to: Joanne Gates English Department Jacksonville State University Jacksonville, AL 36265 I am a little new at this and refreshed to see all the voices out there. Did anyone catch the remarks on William F. Buckley's PBS program a couple of weeks ago, to the effect that in Women's Studies, unlike Black Studies, Jewish Studies, the dissenter's position was unacceptable: You had to be a feminist or else. This was a little scary, given the increase in the number of core or required gender studies component-classes we have, given the harrassment issue of reluctant students. I always understood Women's Studies as the place where a wide diversity of philosophies could communicate. Women bashing, student terrorism, hate crimes, must be denounced so yes, there is a certain *political correctness* component, but shouldn't we address the stakes involved in having Buckley's attitues as the popular notion of women's studies?? Joanne Gates FJG1@JSUMUS ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jun 91 21:31:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Arnie Kahn Subject: A request for a feminist to apply for a dean position This is a note to me from Marlyne Kilbey, chair of the Psychology Department at Wayne State U. Any of you out there interested in being an Arts & Sciences Dean? You can contact Marlyne via bitnet at mkilbey@waynest1 ************************************************************************** Arnie - Would you please let the people on the feminist mailing list know that Dalmas Taylor has resigned our Deanship to become Provost at UVT. I am very interested in seeing good feminists who are strong enough to put up with an adversive environment (see me at APA for details) as candidates when they open the search. I would be happy to talk with anyone intersted at APA. Please pass the word along. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jun 91 10:18:00 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Joan Korenman Subject: Vacation plans and WMST-L I'll be leaving this Monday (June 24) for a vacation. I expect to return the weekend of July 13-14. While I'm away, WMST-L's secondary owner, David Henry, will deal with any technical problems that may arise. Should you need his assistance, he can be reached at DAVE@UMDD (Bitnet) or David_Henry@UMAIL.UMD.EDU (Internet). Best wishes, Joan Korenman, WMST-L listowner korenman@umbc (Bitnet) or korenman@umbc2.umbc.edu (Internet) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 91 07:56:00 CDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Chris Africa Subject: Women's studies & Librarians Like Elizabeth Pollard, I find presumptions of adversarial, or at least unsympathetic, responses from librarians interesting, though having been on both sides of the faculty/library fence not always puzzling. Academic libraries are facing the necessity to reassess long-accepted assumptions about what constitutes a good collection, collection management techniques, and the needs of the variety of clienteles that they serve in the face of changes in scholarship, particularly in the development of inter- disciplinary fields, and changes in the business of producing scholarly information. It is very important that faculty and librarians should talk to each other these days. I participate in two discussion groups at the University of Iowa, the Feminist Reading Group and sessions of the Project of Rhetoric of Inquiry that are invaluable to me for a number of reasons, but not least for the opportunity to hear about what sorts of projects are being pursued around the campus. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 91 08:02:00 CDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Chris Africa Subject: Unindentified librarian I am fully in agreement with the idea that contributors to Women's Studies List, or any other e mail list, should clearly identify themselves--and then neglected to to so on my comments about librarians and faculty. I am: Chris Africa, European History Bibliographer, University of Iowa Libraries Bitnet: CADCALTS@UIAMVS ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 91 09:10:28 GMT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: Linda Lopez McAlister/Hypatia Subject: Call for Papers Eastern SWIP The Society for Women in Philosophy (Eastern Division) will hold its Fall, 1991 meeting at Duquesne University on Saturday, November 2. Papers on all topics are invited. Please send a 10-12 page paper or a 1-2 page abstract. Panel discussion proposals are welcome also. Deadline: September 10, 1991. Send to Eleanore Holveck, Chair, Department of Philosophy, Duquesne University, Pittsburgh, PA 15282. 412-434-6500. (Bitnet: dllafaa@cfrvm Internet: dllafaa@cfrvm.cfr.usf.edu) (813) 974-5531 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 91 09:18:29 GMT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: Linda Lopez McAlister/Hypatia Subject: Call for Papers: Science CALL FOR PAPERS on feminist perspectives in the natural sciences (discipline, subdiscipline, methodology, ideological focus, problematics, and standpoint) for a forthcoming volume of essays MAKING A DIFFERENCE IN THE NATURAL SCIENCES: ELIMINATING GENDER AND RELATED BIASES IN THE CONTENT AND PRACTICE OF SCIENCE. Deadline: July 15, 1991. For further information contact Bonnie Spanier, Chair , Women's Studies Department, University at Albany, SUNY, Albany, NY 12222. (518) 465-5350. [To people on the WMST-L: I hope you don't mind my putting so much stuff out. Since I edit a journal, I get lots of announcments and calls for papers which we print in the Hypatia announcements section. What I'm doing, whenever I have a few minutes, is giving you key items from the announcements section of our next issue which will be out in a couple of weeks]. (Bitnet: dllafaa@cfrvm Internet: dllafaa@cfrvm.cfr.usf.edu) (813) 974-5531 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 91 09:22:08 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Lisa Suhair Majaj Subject: Re: Arab Feminist Scholar Sought Some suggestions: Lila Abu-Lughod, author of Veiled Sentiments: Honor and POetry in a Bedouin Society (U of CA press 1986); Leila Fawaz (I believe she is Leila Ahmad (see her article "Arab Culture and Writing Women's Bodies" in Feminist Issues 9, no. 1 Spring 1989). ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 91 09:26:43 GMT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: Linda Lopez McAlister/Hypatia Subject: Call for Papers: Computing CALL FOR PAPERS for a special issue of THE HUMANITIES COMPUTING YEARBOOK on Women's Studies and Computing. The editor seeks information about applications of computer technology to the diverse issues faced by feminist scholars in various disciplines and someone to write a review essay on each field. Please send off-prints of essays about research that relied on computa- tional technology. If the computing connection is not emphasized in the essay, include a short description of reasons for using computers, and the implications of that choice. Review-essay writers will be chosen from among those who send their work for inclusion in the collection. Clear non-technical writing is sought. Send offprints and letters of inquiry, etc. to: Rosanne G. Potter, Chair, Women's Studies Program, 247 Ross Hall, Iowa State University, A mes, Iowa 50011. Deadline: July 15, 1991. (Bitnet: dllafaa@cfrvm Internet: dllafaa@cfrvm.cfr.usf.edu) (813) 974-5531 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 91 09:56:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: trish Subject: RE: Call for Papers: Science linda: i don't think anyone would feel you should apologize: your conference (etc.) announcements are extremely welcome. trish ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< trish wilson mc master university wilsont@sscvax.cis.mcmaster.ca hamilton,ontario,canada <<<<>>>> ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 91 13:13:08 EDT Reply-To: APA Scientific Grassroots Network Sender: Women's Studies List Comments: Resent-From: Florence Ginsburg Comments: Originally-From: Stephanie Holaday From: Florence Ginsburg Subject: June SPAN mailing I am forwarding this info with the intent that it may be of interest to some/most etc. ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- M E M O R A N D U M JUNE 21, 1991 TO: APA-SPAN MEMBERS FROM: Stephanie Holaday, Science Network Coordinator Science Directorate, APA RE: APA-SPAN monthly mailing, June 1991 Enclosed in this monthly mailing are the following items for your information. 1. WOMEN & HEALTH RESEARCH -- A report on the Science Directorate's initiatives in support of women's health research, emphasizing what is going on in Congress, the Agencies, and in our communities. 2. APA-SPAN TOOLKIT -- The NIH and ADAMHA policy concerning inclusion of women in study populations. ____________________________________________________________________________ 1. "SCIENCE DIRECTORATE WORKS FOR INCREASED RESEARCH ON WOMEN'S HEALTH" Concern about the need for increased research on women's health has been growing in Washington over the past year. Spurred on by Congresswomen Patricia Schroeder, Connie Morella and Marilyn Lloyd, and Senators Barbara Mikulski, Brock Adams and Tom Harkin, the National Institutes of Health and the Alcohol, Drug Abuse and Mental Health Administration have announced strengthened policies on the inclusion of women in study populations. A new Office of Women's Health Research has been established at the National Institutes of Health, headed by Acting Director Ruth Kirschstein, Ph.D. The newly-confirmed Director of NIH, Bernadine Healy, M.D., has announced a major new study, now in the planning stage, of conditions and diseases of older women. The advocacy community, including the APA Science Directorate, has been active in urging increased scientific attention to females. In April, the Science Directorate was given the opportunity to testify before the Board of the Society for the Advancement of Women's Health Research, a group formed by advocacy organizations to work on behalf of increased research on women's health. The Society for the Advancement of Women's Health Research held a day-long meeting to hear testimony from scientific organizations on specific priority areas in which additional research is needed. The behavioral science community was well represented in statements from APA, the Federation of Behavioral, Psychological and Cognitive Sciences, and the Consortium of Social Science Associations. The APA testimony focused on women and depression, health promotion and disease prevention research, and women and chemical dependence. Bonnie Strickland, Ph.D., former president of APA and a member of APA's Task Force on Women and Depression, spoke eloquently of the pain caused to women and their families by all the manifestations of depression, and the need to increase research on the causes and treatments of depression. Quoting the APA Task Force report, she pointed out that there is a surge in the rate of depression among females in adolescence, far outpacing that of adolescent males. Dr. Strickland urged additional funding for behavioral science research, pointing out that funds for such research fell sharply during the Reagan Administration. Andrea Solarz, Ph.D., Legislative and Federal Affairs Officer in the Science Directorate, testified on behalf of the Federation. Her statement emphasized the need for additional research on women and AIDS, health promotion research across the lifespan, and the problem of violence against women. Dr. Solarz pointed out that biopsychosocial factors play an important role in all the diseases of women that were emphasized by other organizations, and she urged the Society for the Advancement of Women's Health Research strongly to consider the role behavioral research can play in helping prevent illness. >From the proceedings of its Board meeting, The Society for the Advancement of Women's Health Research will develop an agenda for research on women's health. Board members include Florence Haseltine, Ph.D., M.D., Director of the Center for Population Research at the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development, and Irma Mebane, Ph.D., Epidemiologist at the National Heart, Lung and Blood Institute. The NIH Office of Women's Health Research (OWHR) is also working to outline an agenda for women's health research. APA and the Federation presented a joint statement June 12 at a public hearing organized by the OWHR on the importance of funding health promotion and disease prevention research along with more medically-oriented disease research. Gwendolyn Puryear Keita, Ph.D., Director of APA's Office of Women' Programs, testified for APA and the Federation. Copies of her statement, and the statements of APA and the Federation before the Society for the Advancement of Women's Health Research, are available from Sandy Brickel at the Science Directorate (APASDPCK@GWUVM). Patricia Kobor and Andrea Solarz, Legislative and Federal Affairs Officers, are handling the women's health issues for NIH and ADAMHA, respectively, at the Science Directorate. 2. THE NIH/ADAMHA POLICY CONCERNING INCLUSION OF WOMEN IN CLINICAL RESEARCH STUDY POPULATIONS On August 24, 1990, NIH and ADAMHA issued a policy notice concerning inclusion of women in study populations. The National Institutes of Health (NIH) and the Alcohol, Drug Abuse, and Mental Health Administration (ADAMHA) recognize that most researchers adequately and appropriately consider gender representation in clinical research design. Nevertheless, the statement below this paragraph is published as a reiteration and further interpretation of the existing NIH/ADAMHA policy concerning inclusion of women in study populations. Clinical research findings should be of benefit to all persons at risk of the disease, regardless of gender. This policy was previously published in the NIH Guide for Grants and Contracts on October 24, 1986; January 23, 1987; March 27, 1987; January 15, 1988; and June 16, 1989. For the purpose of this policy, clinical research includes human studies of etiology, treatment, diagnosis, prevention, and epidemiology of disease, including but not limited to clinical trials. While this policy statement refers to inclusion of women, applicants are strongly reminded that a similar policy exists regarding the inclusion of minorities (NIH Guide for Grants and Contracts - September 25, 1987; January 15, 1988; and June 16, 1989). Both policies must be considered when preparing clinical research applications/proposals for submission to the NIH/ADAMHA. "Public concern requires that clinical studies include both genders in such a way that results are applicable to the general population; exceptions would be those diseases or conditions that occur only in one gender. Therefore, applications/proposals for NIH/ADAMHA support of clinical research should employ a study design with gender representation appropriate to the known incidence/prevalence of the disease or condition being studied. If inclusion of women is impossible or inappropriate with respect to the purpose of the research, the health of the subjects, or other reasons, or if in the only study population available there is a disproportionate representation of one gender, the reasons for excluding women or men must be well explained and justified by the applicant. Similar justification is required if women will not be included in numbers appropriate to the incidence/prevalence of the disease. In conducting peer review for scientific and technical merit, members of Initial Review Groups (IRGs)/Technical Evaluation Groups (TEGs) will be instructed to evaluate the proposed gender composition of the study population. 1) If there is an inadequate number of women in a study design AND this affects the potential to answer the scientific question(s) addressed, that will be considered a weakness or deficiency in the study design and should be reflected in the assigned score given to the application/proposal, and in the summary statement of the review. 2) If an applicant proposes that there is justification for conducting a study in men only, or in a study population in which the proportion of women does not reflect the gender prevalence of the disease or condition under study, a strong scientific rationale, an explanation of the need to protect the health of the subjects, or other well-supported justification must be provided. The IRG/TEG will be instructed to evaluate the merit of such justifications. Appropriate/proposals unless the justification provided is compelling. 3) If the gender composition of the study population is not described, BUT he study otherwise has the potential to answer the scientific question(s) posed and translate the findings to all persons at risk of the disease, the omission will be documented by the Executive Secretary of the IRG/TEG in an administrative note, and will not adversely affect the scientific assessment and the assigned score. If there is inadequate information on the study population to allow evaluation of the scientific question(s), the review may be deferred. The NIH/ADAMHA funding components will not fund/award grants or contracts until the applicant provides sufficient information on the study population to assure compliance with the NIH/ADAMHA policy on inclusion of women in study populations. Since the need to modify sample design could delay award and affect the costs of the study, applicants are strongly advised to address this issue in the initial submission. If costs or study designs are significantly affected by such modification, submission of an amended application/proposal for IRG/TEG review and/or reconsideration by the appropriate National Advisory Council or Board may be necessary. Whenever there are scientific reasons to anticipate differences between men and women with regard to the hypothesis under investigation, applicants should consider the inclusion of an evaluation of gender differences in the proposed study. However, if men and women are enrolled in numbers that reflect the gender proportion of the disease under study, it is not an automatic requirement for the study design to include statistical power for men and women separately. It is important to note that regardless of the program relevance of the proposed research, the NIH/ADAMHA funding components will not fund/award grants or contracts that do not comply with this policy." ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 91 14:18:45 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Thomas Sullivan Sociology Subject: BOOKS ON WOMEN AND HEALTH I posted a request for books on women and health a few weeks ago and got some good responses. I also got a number of requests to share the responses with others on the list. Here is what I have received so far: Barbara Ehrenreich and Deirdre English. For her Own Good: 150 Years of Experts Advice to Women. Anchor/Doubleday, 1989. Cheryl Travis. Women and Health: Biomedical Issues and Women and Health: Mental Health Issues, 1988. a 1991 issue of Ms. magazine titled "Women as Wombs". I will pass on anything else I recieve. Thomas J. Sullivan Department of Sociology and Social Work Northern Michigan University Marquette, MI 49855 bitnet: FATJ@NMUMUS ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 91 15:22:06 CDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Mary Kay Schleiter Subject: human genome project I am forwarding the following message from Julien Murphy, Philosophy, U of S. Maine: jmurphy@portland.maine.edu I am interested in getting connected with others who are working on the Human Genome Project. I am looking at ethical issues, but would be interested in conversing with others working in various compacities on the Human Genome Project. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 91 18:31:49 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Allan Hunter Subject: Re: some thoughts/p.c. of womens studies In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 21 Jun 91 16:12:06 CDT from In my undergrad Intro to Women's Studies class, the Sheila Ruth book we used spoke of how the term "women's studies" came into use as a euphemism for feminist studies (because the word "feminist" scared the academic orthodoxy). In light of the Buckley comment and other cases of people complaining that non-feminist perspectives aren't welcome in women's studies classes, it might be important to return to the notion that *feminist studies, per se*, should be taught in school as a field and a perspective unlike any of the others. My own concern is the opposite of Buckley's: that, although providing some kind of program in "women's studies" has become widespread in academia, such programs are too often created by playing mix-n-match with existing orthodox psychology courses and lit courses and so forth that just happen to deal with women as subject matter without allowing much specifically feminist thought to play a role. Such seems to be the case at SUNY Stony Brook. Anyone else? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jun 91 16:32:36 PST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "ALAN C. ACOCK" Subject: New Director at Oregon State I am pleased to announce that Oregon State University has a new Director of Women Studies. Janet Lee, who is now the Chair of the Department of Women Studies at Mankato State, earned her Ph.D. in sociology from Washington State University in 1955. Our women studies program offers a certificate to students who take courses in a number of departm,ents in addit ion to a regular major. This is a major addition to Oregon State. Dr. Lee will be helpful to researchers in a variety of our departments. Alan C. Acock Human Development and Family Studies ACOCK@ORSTVM ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 91 08:23:32 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "Janet L. Fields" Subject: Re: some thoughts/p.c. of womens studies Allen- Would you please give me a definition of "feminist" and tell me why you tihink it important to separate feminist studies? Acedemia is not the only group who doesn't feel comfortable with feminist studies in lieu of women's studies. While I believe in some of the feminist views (as I under- stand them) I don't believe with them all and have not considered myself to be a feminist. But perhaps I'm not current with the way feminism has evolved. If women's studies becomes feminists' studies, I would find the name a turn off. I'd feel that emphasis as frustrating and as discriminating to the overall female population as the majority of male-oriented studies. Why set up a course for only a segment of women? What about the great numbers of women who do not consider themselves feminists but still consider themselves valid and contributing members of society? Why not have a subgroup within the overall women's studies courses re: feminist studies? Or give the feminist viewpoint along with other women's viewpoints? Janet Fields jlfields@apgea.army.mil ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 91 09:18:16 GMT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: Linda Lopez McAlister/Hypatia Subject: Call for Papers: Pornography/Obscenity Another item from Hypatia's Announcement section in forthcoming issue. Don't respond to me but to the person(s) mentioned in the announcement. Call for papers on pornography and obscenity as they are viewed in contem- porary feminist legal theory for a joint issue of NEWSLETTER ON PHILOSOPHY AND LAW and NEWSLETTER ON FEMINISM AND PHILOSOPHY. Deadline: August 1, 1991. Submissions are limited to ten manuscript pages. Essays should be submitted (in triplicate withe the author's name on the title page only) to Leslie Francis, Department of Philosophy, University of Utah, Salt Lake City, UT 84112. (Bitnet: dllafaa@cfrvm Internet: dllafaa@cfrvm.cfr.usf.edu) (813) 974-5531 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 91 09:22:17 GMT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: Linda Lopez McAlister/Hypatia Subject: Conference in Czechoslovakia WOMEN AND DEMOCRACY IN COUNTRIES OF CENTRAL AND EAST EUROPE, a conference sponsored by The European Centre for Human Rights Education (Prague) and UNESCO will take place in August, 1991. For exact dates and more infor- mation contact Dr. Jirini Smejkalova, Women's Studies Project Coordinator, Euro pean Centre for Human Rights Education, Jilska 1, 110 00 Prague 1, Czecho- slovakia. Tel. 26 20 78. (Bitnet: dllafaa@cfrvm Internet: dllafaa@cfrvm.cfr.usf.edu) (813) 974-5531 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 91 09:26:00 GMT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: Linda Lopez McAlister/Hypatia Subject: Call for Graduate Student Papers Call for papers by graduate students theorizing and defining their re- lationship to feminist theory and praxis and responding to the connections/ disparities betwen lived lives and academic feminism, theory, and literary history. Accepted essays will be anthologized. Both experimental and traditional essays are welcome. Deadline for papers: Agusut 30, 1991. Send submissions to Tracy E. Brown, 6B Abrams, Escondido Village, Stanford, CA 94305. (Bitnet: dllafaa@cfrvm Internet: dllafaa@cfrvm.cfr.usf.edu) (813) 974-5531 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 91 09:29:41 GMT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: Linda Lopez McAlister/Hypatia Subject: Call for papers for SAGE The editors of SAGE: A SCHOLARLY JOURNAL ON BLACK WOMEN are soliciting essays, personal narratives, and interviews for a special issue on relationships. This issue will focus on intimate, friendship, and family relationships. The deadline for submissions is September 1, 1991. Manuscripts and queries should be sent to the editors at P.O. Box 42741, Atlanta, GA 30311-0741. (Bitnet: dllafaa@cfrvm Internet: dllafaa@cfrvm.cfr.usf.edu) (813) 974-5531 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 91 10:27:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Arnie Kahn Subject: women's studies vs. feminist studies How would the content of an Introduction to Feminist Studies differ from the content of an Introduction to Women's Studies course? If the content were the same, then it is just a cosmetic matter. In our discussing our Intro to Women's Studies course and preparing our syllabus for next spring, Sharon and I included "adopting a feminist perspective" as one of our objectives. Much of the first class period will be spent exploring what is meant by a feminist perspective. Arnie fac_askahn@jmuvax or fac_askahn@vax1.acs.jmu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 91 10:46:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: RHODA UNGER Subject: RE: women's studies vs. feminist studies I too am concerned that we make a distinction between women's studies and feminist studies. Feminist studies has an explicit political analysis built in which is an antidote to androcentric theories that are implicit in most "mainstream" scholarship. This means, of course, that one assumes that there is no such thing as objective value-free scholarship and that it is important that students be informed about where the faculty member is "coming from." I can think of many examples of women's studies that are not feminist and with which I am not in sympathy (although I cannot object that they be taught). For example, someone could study the "great women" of history, traditional psychodynamic theories about women (without a critique), various ways of viewing women as victims (e.g., the effect of multiple roles in creating disease which sees women as creaating their own problems), or individualized strategies for women to change themselves (e.g., all of the self-help books which blame women for their dependency on men, for loving them too much, etc.). None of these topics would be feminist although they would be about women. I am curious about why someone objects to calling themselves a feminist. There are, of course, many different kinds of feminism, but the bottom line is political, economic, and social equality between women and men. The other arguments among feminists involve causality and how far reaching change must be and I hope all of us who consider our- selves to be feminists can agree to disagree. Rhoda Unger unger@apollo.montclair.edu ========================================================================= Date: TUE, 25 JUN 91 14:29:28 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: RTFC507@UTXVM.BITNET Subject: feminist v. women's studies > Would you please give me a definition of "feminist" and tell me why > you tihink it important to separate feminist studies? Acedemia is not the > only group who doesn't feel comfortable with feminist studies in lieu of > women's studies. While I believe in some of the feminist views (as I under- > stand them) I don't believe with them all and have not considered myself > to be a feminist. But perhaps I'm not current with the way feminism has > evolved. If women's studies becomes feminists' studies, I would find the na > a turn off. I'd feel that emphasis as frustrating and as discriminating to > the overall female population as the majority of male-oriented studies. Why > set up a course for only a segment of women? What about the great numbers > of women who do not consider themselves feminists but still consider themsel > valid and contributing members of society? Why not have a subgroup within > the overall women's studies courses re: feminist studies? Or give the > feminist viewpoint along with other women's viewpoints? I'd like to hear from Janet what her definition of feminist studies might entail. "Feminism," along with "Liberalism" and "Marxism" has achieved loaded meaning in Bush's New World Order, and we would do well to foreground our usage of the terms lest we fall into goosestep with post-Iraq jingoism. I see feminist studies as a level of political analysis that takes into account the continued oppression of women in this society, as well as proposing strategies (pedagogical or otherwise) that raise the consciousness of students and the community to this oppression, and work to eliminate sexism and heterosexism. Just my opinion. Steve Carr Steven.Carr@utxvm.cc.utexas.edu RTFC507@utxvm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 91 15:07:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: HENKING@HWS.BITNET Subject: Re: some thoughts/p.c. of womens studies in reply to janet fields' request for a definition of feminism, i would urge looking at Rosemary Tong's introduction to her book on feminist thought. she provides a very broad, and to my mind reasonable, definition involving 1) identifying a problem in the social order associated with gender based discrimination (viz., sexism against women); 2) seeing this sexism as bad; and 3) urging a program of change. SHe differentiates between many versions of feminism -- e.g., marxist feminism, psychoanalytic feminism, eco-feminism etcetera etcetera based on the theoretical frames which are utilized to identify crucial aspects of the problem and, hence, to udnergird particular identify crucial aspects of the problem and, hence, to udnergird particular programs of action. while her typology (like others, e.g., alison jaggar) is problematic in some respects (e.g., it oversimplifies) it is useful. by the way, her book includes increibly useful bibliographies. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 91 15:11:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: HENKING@HWS.BITNET Subject: Re: women's studies vs. feminist studies i inadvertently left my address/name off my recent submission about rosemary ton g's book. my apologies. however, i just want to reaffirm the position of Rhoda Unger about the distinction between women's studies and feminist studies. there do exist courses which look at texts by and about women for purposes which are not supportive of women's interests. while the matter of drawing distinctions can be poltically volatile -- and difficlut to theorize -- and even more difficult to accomplish in practice -- and problematicly linked to issues of academic freedom -- and . . . . its seems a relevant distinction to examine. susan henking henking@hws ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 91 15:58:33 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: AHUNTER@CCVM.SUNYSB.EDU Subject: women's and/or feminist studies To Janet L. Fields and others who do not understand my concern about feminist studies -- Rhoda Unger's comments address part of it quite well; that is, a program of study addressing women as subject matter, while valid as a program per se, does not satisfy the need for specifically feminist perspectives, that start with sex polarization and women's oppression, and gendered issues such as reproduction and sexuality, to explain other subject matter. See Unger's com- ments for more explicit analysis. In addition, it should be pointed out that an enormous range of subject matter that would *not* be thought of as having to do with women, necessarily -- power, governmental systems, theories of cog- nition and processes of knowing, the prehistory of the species, and so forth -- look different when approached from a feminist perspective. Because the fem- inist perspective is a complete perspective in the sense that the sociological or the philosophical perspective is complete (to say the least), it should be presented through an established department with tenured faculty, degrees both undergraduate and graduate, etc. Instead, it is still largely ignored in our schools. "Women's studies" has been its hiding-out place, I guess, which means women's studies is doing double-time, since the study of women as subject of interest (from *any* perspective) is a previously ignored field also in need of being taught comprehensively. No objection to the study of women here, but I think that, of the two modalities, feminist studies is the more endangered, since it challenges the existing perspectives taught in other departments and addresses a wide variety of subjects. As "women's studies" alone, the argu- ment can (and will) be made that the old traditional departments have started to add in perspectives on women as subject matter, and therefore there is no longer any need for a women's studies department (with tenured faculty) or a full-sized program; it will just exist as a subfield. Yes? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 91 16:18:49 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: AHUNTER@CCVM.SUNYSB.EDU Subject: Re: women's studies vs. feminist studies In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 25 Jun 91 10:27:00 EST from How would an Intro to Feminist Studies course differ from Intro to Women's Studies? To the extent that Women's Studies is a euphemism for the other, not a whole lot, but for one thing, I'd expect more attention in a women's studies intro course to female-centric subject matter in the form of personal testimony: how do women experience growing up female, their first menstrual period, the awareness that they can't walk alone at night in the same sense that men can, and so on. A course in feminist studies might make more of an overt attempt to introduce feminist theory, to introduce the idea that it is possible to understand all human experience by beginning with an understanding of patriarchy, what it is, how it works, what its operant values are, and then, in that light, begin to analyze human experience (male and female) to see how it can be understood and re-interpreted. For example, the male experience of being a young adult or teenager and set up by social forces to function as a symbol of sexual appetite might be discussed and analyzed. Male experience is less appropriate in a course titled "women's studies". Does that clarify any- thing? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 91 23:28:19 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Anne Kearney Subject: Feminist studies/woman studies It seems to me that part of the problem has to do with goals. Is the goal to a chieve greater equality, respect, opportunities etc. for women or is the goal to make the term "feminist" more acceptable. If it is the former, then why add additional problems which impede the goal by raising another issue. That wo uld be like naming a national health care proposal the "Socialist Health Care Plan." Why give your opponents a stick to beat you with? Americans have alway s been nervous about "isms" whether it is communism, socialism, anarchism or fe minism. That's the reality. For that reason I favor woman studies. Anne Kearney Jefferson Community College Louisville, KY jccannek@ukcc ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 91 09:55:56 GMT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: Linda Lopez McAlister/Hypatia Subject: Conference announcement/call for papers A conference "Reassessing the Ground for Our Struggle: Connecting Women's Lives in Theory, Practice, and Performance" is being sponsored by the Women's Studies Program at Bowling Green State University, April 24-25, 1992. They encourage submission of papers, panels, workshops, literary readings, performance artists, and presentation of community projects. Submission dead- line is September 15, 1991. For more information, contact Karen Gould, Dir., or Lynn Walkiewicz, Conference Coordinator, Women's Studies Program, Bowling Green State University, 248 Shatzel Hall, Bowling Green, Ohio, 43403 (419-272- 2620 or 372-7133). (Bitnet: dllafaa@cfrvm Internet: dllafaa@cfrvm.cfr.usf.edu) (813) 974-5531 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 91 10:01:01 GMT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: Linda Lopez McAlister/Hypatia Subject: Call for Papers/Medieval Women CALL FOR PAPERS for a session entitled MEDIEVAL WOMEN/MEDIEVAL PHILOSOPHYfor the 1992 Medieval Studies Congress to be held in Kalamazoo, MI. Of particular interest is work dealing with women's engagement with medieval philosophy as well as work on medieval philosophical positions about women. Work outside the mystical tradition is especially welcome, as is work on more scholastic elements in mystical authors. Contact: Joan Gibson, York University, Atkinson College, 4700 Keele St., Downsview, Ont. M3J 2R7 Canada. (Bitnet: dllafaa@cfrvm Internet: dllafaa@cfrvm.cfr.usf.edu) (813) 974-5531 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 91 10:11:47 GMT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: Linda Lopez McAlister/Hypatia Subject: GENDERIN ACADEME CONFERENCE Gender in Academe: Who Cares?2nd Biennial Conference will be held at the University of South Florida October 31-November 2, 1991. Keynote speakers: Toril Moi and Leslie King-Hammond. For further information on the conference contact Lagretta Lenker, University of South Florida, Lifelong Learning, Tampa, FL 33620. (813) 974-2403. Note: This conference is not sponsored by the Women's Studies Program at USF and may not be an entirely feminist affair, judging by the one they did in 1989. Still, there will be some interesting speakers and much feminist content. LLM. (Bitnet: dllafaa@cfrvm Internet: dllafaa@cfrvm.cfr.usf.edu) (813) 974-5531 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 91 10:19:04 GMT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: Linda Lopez McAlister/Hypatia Subject: Call for papers: Sinister Wisdom Sinister Wisdom: a Journal for the Lesbian Imagination in the Arts and Politics is seeking submissions from lesbians for an open theme issue, deadline October 1, 1991, all forms. Lesbians of Color issue deadline February 1, 1992. Send 2 copies of work w/ s.a.s.e. to PO Box 3252, Berkeley, CA 94703. (Bitnet: dllafaa@cfrvm Internet: dllafaa@cfrvm.cfr.usf.edu) (813) 974-5531 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 91 11:08:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Arnie Kahn Subject: Special Issue on "Heterosexuality" _Feminism and Psychology_ is soliciting manuscripts for a special issue on "Heterosexuality." Articles will address such issues as: o What is heterosexuality and why is it so common? o Why is it so hard for heterosexuals to change their sexual orientation? o What is the nature of heterosexual sex? o How does heterosexual activity affect a woman's life, her sense of herself, her relationships with other women, and her political engagements? o What is heterosexism, and how does it work? Submissions should be addressed to Dr. Celia Kitzinger Department of Psychology University of Surrey Guildford GU2 5XH, Surrey, UK Submission deadline is 1/31/92. Arnie fac_askahn@jmuvax (bitnet) fac_askahn@vax1.acs.jmu.edu (internet) Please do not send querries or manuscripts to me; send them to Dr. Kitzinger. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 91 10:36:47 CDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Mary Kay Schleiter Subject: WWI Last night I was going through old, old photos with my partner,Peg. We found an album that contained pictures her father had taken during World War I. They were awful, but I went through them anyway. One picture was of a dead Russian soldier. Before taking the picture, the American soldiers had torn away the dead soldier's pants to show that the soldier was a woman. According to Peg, the picture was shown around widely to demonstrate the belief that the Russians were uncivilized -- they would send their women into battle, and the women didn't even look like women (to them). (Interesting that Peg later went into the army and became one of the first woman MPs.) Anyway, the photo really disturbed me, and I was wondering if anyone had any information about women in battle during World War I. Mary Kay mks@vacs.uwp.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 91 11:36:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: HENKING@HWS.BITNET Subject: Re: Special Issue on "Heterosexuality" actually, this is not a reply to the special issue on heterosexuality, though i think it is about time we tried to explain why heterosexuality is so common. anyway, i have been asked by several people to post the citation for the rosemarie tong book i mentioned a few days ago. so here it is: rosemarie tong, feminist thought: a comprehensive introduction. boulder, CO: westview press, 1989! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 91 10:48:26 PDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Steve Condit Subject: explain heterosexuality? Explain the prevalence of heterosexuality? How about basic biology - a gendered species must reproduce to survive and the gendered part requires heterosexuality. Either this area of study is absurd or there is something I don't understand. Is it academic mindset or "ism" mindset attempting to address an issue in the wrong context or to ignore the basic realities of embodied life on this planet here and now? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 91 14:18:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: HENKING@HWS.BITNET Subject: Re: explain heterosexuality? I am writing in reply to the note indicating that the attempt to explain heterosexuality's prevalence is absurd. the author seems to think that "basic biology" explains it all and asks if it is the academic mindset or ism mindset which leads to this sort of question. I must say that i don't find the issue adsurd -- or trivial -- at all. It seems to arise from the work of people like Foucault (and, on an alternative view, Greenberg) who depict homosexuality as historically and culturally conditioned (see also th e the work of Jeffrey Weeks, John D'Emilio, Adrienne Rich "Compulsory Heterosexuality and Lesbian Existence"...). On this view, all sexualities are constructed to some extent -- se also donna haraway, PRIMATE VISIONS, in this regard. Overall, the argument is rooted in the idea that "pure biology" is not something we experience. If, for example, homosexual identity is somethin g created in the 19th century (this is a matter of great historical debate, of course, see Foucault and Greenberg) -- but, if it is the case, then a heterosexual identity is also created oevr against this homosexual identity. (many cultures, for example, do not make this radical divide between sorts of persons --all persons may engage in sexual acts with persons of the same sex at some times in life and the opposite sex at other times -- see greenberg .) an anaology might be relevant: if race is a social construct (rather than pure biology, whatever that means) then it is not just the categroy "black" which requires explanation but also the category white. By analogy, if sexuality is a social construct , then both homosexual and heterosexual (and whatever other categroeis are utilized) merit explanation. susan henking@hws (bitnet) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 91 14:18:59 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Diane Glazener Steve conduit writes: >Explain the prevalence of heterosexuality? How about basic biology - >a gendered species must reproduce to survive and the gendered part >requires heterosexuality. Either this area >of study is absurd or there is something I don't understand. Is it >academic mindset or "ism" mindset attempting to address an issue in >the wrong context or to ignore the basic realities of embodied life >on this planet here and now? One basic flaw with your stand, Steve. The above would explain only bisexuality. There is no biological reason for exclusive heterosexuality. At least not at the humankind level where personality and emotional need play such an enormous role. I have seen heterosexuality explained in recent HIStory (not HERstory) in terms of patriarchal control systems and thus necessarily, the involvement of the church (a patriarchal group). glaze@vtvm2 (bitnet) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 91 14:58:29 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Allan Hunter Subject: Re: explain heterosexuality? In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 26 Jun 91 10:48:26 PDT from Okay; how about starting with "define heterosexuality"? (The most important questions are often those that seem to have ridiculously obvious answers until you start on them). Consider, for example, the rarity of heterosexual sissies in our society. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 91 11:46:59 PDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Steve Condit Subject: explanations of explain heterosexuality Okay, the question is not absurd, there was something(s) I did not understand. Susan Henking and Diane Glazener have explained that "heterosexuality" really means "heterosexual identity" or "exclusive heterosexuality" and seems to include a notion of "as opposed to homosexuality." I agree that this non-trivial, expecially regarding the treatment of homosexuals by heterosexuals and the social institutions, constructs, etc. that maintain unjust and cruel treatment of any individuals. I also agree that there is no "pure biology", but none- theless, I see the denial of common bodily realities as part of the whole matter-spirit dualism that feminist thought has exposed. Heterosexuality is mandated by biology if the species is to survive (short of some brave new world type of reproduction with its risk of at least as much abuse). The cultural meaning assigned to hetero- sexuality and homosexuality rests on this biological foundation, which by itself does not determine cultural meanings. This is an area in which I have not done any reading. I am thinking about a course on "ethics and sexuality" or "ethics of sexuality" with the goals of exploring ethical issues of sexuality and helping students see the importance and existence of "socially constructed reality." I would appreciate text book ideas, and would like to include homo- sexual viewpoints and analysis, as well as of the "traditional" family which in some sense never did exist, and is no longer the norm. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 91 15:09:15 CDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: cliff staples Subject: Re: explanations of explain heterosexuality In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 26 Jun 91 11:46:59 PDT from Interesting conversation vis a vis "heterosexuality." From the first posting I could see the firestorm on the horizen-- like one of those home- video versions of a tornado, only in virtual space. One thing I've learned (lately, later than most probably): as I pay close attention to hetero-masculine behavior and ideas it becomes clear that while the _objects_ of this desire are female, the sources of it are male and in male culture. Hetero-masculinism is an ideology with which we (by which I mean myself and other males captured by and reproducing hetero-masculine culture) motivate our desire and provide us and others with a resource to make sense out of it whenever we need to (i.e. whenever its contradictions are made visable). The recent work (I'll dig up the citation) on fraternity gang rapes points this up so clearly. It's all about men and their relationships with each other. Of course, this all reminds me of the tradition of discussing how hetero-masculine culture works to construct woman as "other." I think I understand that discussion somewhat better now. If patriarchy is about male power over women and men learn their sexuality from other men, then male sexuality is suffused with the imperatives of patriarchy. This is why I don't use the term "heterosexuality," but "hetero-masculinism" when discussing specifically male desire for women. We musn't forget where it comes from, where it goes, and who usually gets hurt in the process. Almost none of the options available to men in male culture place us alongside women as partners-- sexual or otherwise. All visions of hetero-masculinism presume a position of power and superiority. From a common source come both the rapist and the "family man." This is not to diminish the real differences between the two-- for either the men or the women-- only to emphasize the magnitude of the problem: the absence of even a small space in male culture to talk about such matters. That's at least part of the reason why I and some other men tend to "take over" women's space; it's really a lot safer than to be out on the golf course railing (and flailing) away at the guys about sexism. Cowardice, and from this do spring the virtuous new age sensitive guy-- me, or something similar. None of the above is original. But I believe every word of it. Cliff Staples ud153289@ndsuvm1 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 91 18:07:28 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "Janet L. Fields" Subject: Re: women's studies vs. feminist studies Regarding the various responses I've received: If to be a feminist means to believe in and strive for equality in social, economic, health, and political areas of life - in fact, in equal rights in all areas of life people are involved in- then, yes, I would consider myself a feminist. I have never heard the definition stop there. I have heard many different definitions of the term "feminist" and most who profess to be a feminist say I can't possibly be one. This is why I asked for a definition of the term. In many parts of the country I have lived in, the term is politically loaded as well as being perceived as meaning many more things than the baseline given. I've felt a lack in available studies that relate to women as a group. Women's health issues differ from men's in ways that haven't begun to be explored. Psychological issues that pertain to women only - such as the effects of childbearing and menopause - still need exploring. IMHO. I don't believe labeling courses as women's studies vs. feminist studies will be the wedge that drives the courses back into subsets of male dominated studies. I personally have a problem with labeling. I realize it's difficult or impossible to avoid dealing with the label "woman" but that's as much of a label as I feel comfortable carrying. I also have a problem with the appearance of setting up restrictions when we're (I thought) trying to break out of them. Janet F. jlfields@apgea.army.mil ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jun 91 18:07:09 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2 From: "Leonard P. Hirsch" Subject: Re: explanations of explain heterosexuality In-Reply-To: note of 06/26/91 17:13 From: Leonard P. Hirsch Office of International Relations/Q-3123 (202) 357-4788 re: Steve Condit's comments:>Heterosexuality is mandated by biology. NO. Heterosexual relations are, not heterosexuality, heterosexism, or heterosexual relationSHIPS. The latter three are cultural. +-----------------------------------------------------+ | Leonard Hirsch (202) 357-4788/FAX (202)786-2557 | | Smithsonian Institution BITNET INCEM005@SIVM | +-----------------------------------------------------+ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jun 91 08:04:09 cdt Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "Finagle, etc. (Durflinger,Edward M)" I think the phrase "explain heterosexuality" to be a bit simplistic...I think the issue the question wants to raise is "Explain why _compulsory- heterosexuality, i.e., sociocultural barriers against sexual/affectational contact with MOTSS _at all_, is so prelevant in society." Hetero_sex_, alone, is the most convenient means of reproduction. :) Heterosexu_ality_ is a whole 'nother kettle of fish...People can be other orientations and still reproduce, no? --Finagle ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Finagle's Creed:| The IrReverend Finagle the Polymorphously Perverse Science is true,| High Epopt of Greater Pangea Don't be misled | Edward Durflinger [DURFLING@GRIN1.BITNET] by facts! | Box 4-66, Grinnell College Grinnell, Iowa 50112 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Don't just eat that hamburger--eat the HELL out of it!--J.R. "Bob" Dobbs ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jun 91 08:11:57 cdt Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "Finagle, etc. (Durflinger,Edward M)" Subject: Cliff's message well, the hetero-masculinity argument seems to work well for explaining why men like to physically dominate and control women, based on their 'bonding' experiences for each othe, but... how does it explain a female's desire for a male? Or would you say that no woman ever "truly" desires a "masculine" male, but is simply under the compulsion of internalized oppression? This would raise the question of what sort of men -should- women find attractive, if at all... --Finagle ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Finagle's Creed:| The IrReverend Finagle the Polymorphously Perverse Science is true,| High Epopt of Greater Pangea Don't be misled | Edward Durflinger [DURFLING@GRIN1.BITNET] by facts! | Box 4-66, Grinnell College Grinnell, Iowa 50112 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Don't just eat that hamburger--eat the HELL out of it!--J.R. "Bob" Dobbs ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jun 91 10:36:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: HENKING@HWS.BITNET Subject: Re: explanations of explain heterosexuality in regard to the idea of a course on ethics and sexuality, i would suggest as possibilities two very controversial anthologies: Ann Snitow et al., POWERS OF DESIRE: THE POLITICS OF SEXUALITY published by the Monthly REview in 1 983; and Carole S. Vance PLEASURE AND DANGER: EXPLORING FEMALE SEXUALITY as things to look at. Also, there is a rather stodgy anthology whose editor I am not recalling, entitled HOMOSEXUALITY AND ETHICS which whose editor I am not recalling, entitled HOMOSEXUALITY AND ETHICS which (oops) might be itneresting and, for a truly interesting perspective, a book entitled LESBIAN ETHICS by Sarah Lucia Hoagland (publisher slips through my brain right now. but this should be findable through books in print). susan henking@hws (bitnet) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jun 91 11:30:01 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Allan Hunter Subject: Re: explanations of explain heterosexuality In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 26 Jun 91 15:09:15 CDT from Interesting comments & well-stated. Although it makes me a maverick among sociologists and old-fashionedy next to deconstructionists, I don't think all attitudes, inclinations, behaviors and desires are socially constructed; in the case of sexual desire, I don't think sexual desire exists only because the pat- riarchal culture taught us to experience it. When we narrow it to speak only of the sexual desire experienced *by* males and *for* females, there is reason to say that the only form we see it in is the masculinized form that object- ifies women as other, that operates as a male-bonding (male-binding) apparatus working in opposition to any other form that sexuality might take. But that is not the same as saying that the original source of any and all sexual appetite that can or could be experienced by a male person for a person who is not male is caused by men and the processes of masculinization. Andrea Dworkin might be more inclined to agree with you (see Intercourse, for example), as might Mary Daly (Gyn/Ecology and Pure Lust), but Robin Morgan (The Anatomy of Freedom) and other feminist theorists have considered the emotional and sexual relationships that are theoretically possible between males and females to be at the core of a visionary re-reading of who and how we could be instead, and place a high value on such visionary theorizing. I don't like to call it "heterosexuality" either (since that is largely negatively defined anyway as non-homosexuality), but despite the politics of male-female sexual dynamics as they are now, I don't like to see the entire range of such possibilities reduced to socially determined and oppressively constructed ways of being. [This exchange runs the risk of clogging up the network with more male-female relationship stuff, and I apologize for being unable to resist participating, but I think it is of more than tangential importance to academic feminist theory as well] ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jun 91 11:01:58 CDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: cliff staples Subject: Re: explanations of explain heterosexuality In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 27 Jun 91 11:30:01 EDT from I would post this response directly to A. Hunter if I knew how, but his address seems to be INTERNET and I don't know (yet) how to do that. So, more clutter. Just send this note into the ether if it's of no interest. Allan: I very much appreciate your words re: hetero-masculine desire and so forth. What I said does lead into some dead ends, or at least cul-de-sacs. Thanks. "Thinking about emotional and sexual relationships that are theoretically possible" and "useful to a visionary rereading" seems like a very good thing to do and I'll look into Robin Morgan's work. Of course, I DO ASSUME exactly such possibilities, and it is interesting to ponder why "we" don't speak about them as much. Just out of fashion? It may be more than that. But anyway, without such possibilities the whole business of theorizing (not to mention politics) is absurd. Most sociologists (like me) want everything to be socially constructed because it places the future in our (male?) hands. It's a way of ordering history and autobiography in the interest of self control. And of maintaining a thoroughly modernist belief in progress. The question, it seems to me, is whether we define the problem as one of _finding or recovering_ those "essential" emotional and sexual relationships or of _creating_ them, or the conditions for them, through social change/revolution. I'm reminded of Dennis Wrong's "The Oversocialized Conception of (sic) Man in Modern Sociology." I've also been thinking about how Marx and Engels used relations between men and women as a "vision" of the communist future. On more than one occasion. It's fun to re-read that now, "today" and in particular to see what sort of "relations" they had in mind. Cliff Staples ud153289@ndsuvm1 ps. Did you say you were a sociologist? ASA? send back privately if that makes sense. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jun 91 12:46:53 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: RB2000@RCN.BITNET In-Reply-To: Re: explanations of explain heterosexuality <910627120628.00536A26. I would appreciate references--books, journal articles--re: feminist thought and values or ethics. Everyone is aware of Carol Gilligan's work. Who else? Thank you in advance. Bob Baker BitNet: RB2000@RCN ========================================================================= Date: THU, 27 JUN 91 14:10:32 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: RTFC507@UTXVM.BITNET Subject: Discussion of heterosexuality We should distinguish between heterosexuality, a socially sanctioned identity, and heterosexism, the oppressive form of this identity that inflicts its anachronistic version of morality upon gays, lesbians and bisexuals. I hope this discussion is within the purview of the list. It seems to me that if women's studies is to withstand the onslaught of attacks from the right, we need to address these issues at some kind of level of ideological analysis. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jun 91 15:48:42 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Allan Hunter In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 27 Jun 91 12:46:53 EST from Feminist values, priorities, etc... Here's two radically different treatments within feminist thought: GYN/ECOLOGY: The Metaethics of Radical Feminism Mary Daly; 1979, I think BEYOND POWER: Men, Women and Morals Marilyn French; 1985 (both are macroscopic treatments, not confined to ethics per se) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jun 91 16:42:28 GMT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: Linda Lopez McAlister/Hypatia Subject: Feminist Ethics Bibliography There's a very up-to-date and thorought bibliography on the "care ethics debate" in the Winter, 1991 issue of the APA (American Philosophical Assn.) Newsletter on Feminism and Philosophy 90:2 103-108. All philosophers who belong to the APA automatically get this publication, so ask someone in your philo dept. (Bitnet: dllafaa@cfrvm Internet: dllafaa@cfrvm.cfr.usf.edu) (813) 974-5531 ========================================================================= Date: THU, 27 JUN 91 19:10:47 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: RTFC507@UTXVM.BITNET Subject: Suggestions of references An outstanding book--_Women's Ways of Knowing_, Belenky et. al. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jun 91 21:32:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Arnie Kahn Subject: _Women's Ways of Knowing_ >From: RTFC507@UTXVM.BITNET >Subject: Suggestions of references > >An outstanding book--_Women's Ways of Knowing_, Belenky et. al. I, for one, have a whole lot of trouble with this recommendation. However, I'm not sure discussion of particular texts is relevant to this discussion. Arnie fac_askahn@jmuvax (bitnet) fac_askahn@vax1.acs.jmu.edu (internet) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jun 91 22:38:22 GMT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: Linda Lopez McAlister/Hypatia Subject: Reference re Rape on Campus Somebody made reference to recent research on fraternity rape. The exact title escapes me but you'd want to look at Peggy Reeves Sanday's new book on that subject. (Bitnet: dllafaa@cfrvm Internet: dllafaa@cfrvm.cfr.usf.edu) (813) 974-5531 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jun 91 23:20:59 CDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "Rosanne G. Potter" Subject: Bibliography on Feminist Pedagogy I would appreciate bibliographic suggestions for a course on Feminist Pedagogy. Thanks Rosanne G. Potter Women's Studies Iowa State To: WMST-L@UMDD ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jun 91 15:18:40 PST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "ALAN C. ACOCK" Subject: position Our College at Oregon State has received $2.7 million for an endowed chair in family policy. We are beginning to define the position and plan a recruitment program. Right now I'm interested in any nominations that might come from this list. While we do not know the exact job description, we know we want a person with a strong publication record, a strong track record in funded research, and an interest in public policy. I do not think we will limit the content area beyond family policy. The salary will be highly competitive and the research support will be excellent. We are about to finish a new building for Family Study. This building will house a CATI lab, and Census Data Center Affiliation, a computer network, several small group labs, and two child care classrooms. All rooms will be wired with the best video and sound equipment. The building is costing us about $2.5 million and the person selected as the endowed chair will have a major role in shaping its use. Beyond this, our recent faculty additions have greatly strengthened our research capabilities. For instance, we are scheduling a six course stat/methods sequence for our graduate program and we are entirely linked through a Novell network to each other and the mainframe. The new Family Study Center does not replace the department space (we keep that). The Center will be strictly devoted to research. This is a great opportunity for the right person. Please send any nominations to me. Recognize that I am announcing this before the recruitment program starts and I am not the chair of that committee. I just trying to generate names of people those on this list think would be strong candidates. I will share these with the recruitment committee when it is formed. Alan C. Acok Chair, Human Development and Family Sciences Oregon State University Milam 322 Corvallis, OR 97331-5102 ACOCK@ORSTVM ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jun 91 10:49:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: HENKING@HWS.BITNET Subject: Re: Bibliography on Feminist Pedagogy I WOULD RECOMMEND: sUusan l. gabriel and isaiah smithson, gender in the classroom: power and pedagogy; chrlotte bunch and sandra pollack, learning our way: essauys in feminist education; margo colley and catherine portuges gendered subjects. and the special issue of women's studies quarterly (volume xv, no 3&4 fall/winter 1987) on feminist pedagogy henkign@hws ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jun 91 11:23:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Arnie Kahn Subject: rape on campus A student of mine just finished a thesis on rape on campus. One of her findings was that about 25% of the female students reported an experience that would legally fit the definition of rape. However, in response to the question, "Have you ever been raped?" only 1/4 of this 25% said "yes." Arnie Kahn fac_askahn@jmuvax fac_askahn@vax1.acs.jmu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jun 91 12:51:25 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Florence Ginsburg Subject: Re: rape on campus In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 28 Jun 91 11:23:00 EST from I am wondering if women don't know they have been raped or are just in some state of denial. I am also finding this kind of thing with men and women who were sexually abused as children. They report never being sexually assaulted but when they're in treatment, their victim- ization emerges. Some researchers suggest it may be due to the way the question (s) have been asked. Nevertheless, I wonder what is happening???? I would hypothesize that adult's who have been assaulted as adults would know that they have been assaulted, and children may believe, at least some of them, that what their assaulter is saying, i.e., this is good for you etc., the children don't think they've been abused. Interesting research question, I think! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jun 91 12:53:02 CDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "dr. joanne gates" One fairly current book, Deborah Tannen's *YOU JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND* William Morrow, 1989 or 1990. She had a column in the Chronicle of Higher Education last week about gender differences in conversation. There are reservations I have about some of her positions, but worth exploring as a possible text. The Chronicle also ran a feature on a woman who was doing research on campus and specifically, fraternity gang rape. Not able to retrieve it at this moment, but someone might search. I think she was from Philly? Joanne Gates, English Jacksonville State University Jacksonville AL 36265 FJG1@JSUMUS, but switching to nomail status after this message away for two months, but US mail will be forwarded. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jun 91 14:41:00 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "Susan Ross, Penn State University" Subject: Fraternity Gang Rape One woman I know of in Philly who is doing research on fraternity gang rape is Peggy Sanday, an anthropology professor at U. of PA. I don't know if this is the same person, but she's done some interesting studies. She also works sometimes with women serving life sentences in a state prison in PA. Susan Ross Penn State University ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jun 91 11:51:00 PDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Mary Eaton Can anyone recommend sources of info re Norwegian women who wrote fiction (in English or Norwegian) after arriving in the USA during the 19th Century? Am interested in immigrant experience as portrayed by women writers from Scandinavia (Norway in particular). Any info will be appreciated! Mary Eaton Internet: egc4eat@oac.ucla.edu Bitnet: egc4eat@uclamvs ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jun 91 11:38:44 PDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: jdubey@REED.EDU Subject: Re: rape on campus > I am wondering if women don't know they have been raped or are just > in some state of denial. I am also finding this kind of thing with > men and women who were sexually abused as children. They report never > being sexually assaulted but when they're in treatment, their victim- > ization emerges. Some researchers suggest it may be due to the way > the question (s) have been asked. Nevertheless, I wonder what is > happening???? I would hypothesize that adult's who have been assaulted > as adults would know that they have been assaulted, and children may believe, > at least some of them, that what their assaulter is saying, i.e., this > is good for you etc., the children don't think they've been abused. > Interesting research question, I think! > There is a book called "I Never Called It Rape," edited by Robin Morgan, which is based on the results of a survey done by Ms. Magazine, which directly addresses this issue. Because victim-blaming is so prevalent in our treatment of rape survivors, and because rape is so acceptable in our society (I know that statement will set off a few fires but I'm prepared to defend it), many women don't think they have been raped for many reasons: 1) She is in denial; she loved the person and can't/doesn't want to believe that he betrayed her; 2) She figures it was her own fault for getting into the situation in the first place (she got drunk, she went to his apartment, she kissed him) 3) She believes the common messages; he took her out, so she "owed" him sex; she led him on, etc. It also depends on how one defines rape, and yes, how one phrases the question. The Ms. survey explores this as well. For instance, "Have you ever been raped?" "No." "Has a man ever physically threatened you to get you to sleep with him?" "Yes." If a woman admits--to others, to herself--that she has been raped, she must face a huge trauma of realizing that she could not control a situation, she may feel completely helpless and unable to defend herself in any way. She also must face a resistant society that will accuse HER of doing something "wrong," or it wouldn't have happened to her. In the case of survivors of childhood sexual abuse, often the incidents are completely blocked from conscious memory until some trigger (such as therapy, or another traumatic incident) brings them to light. And the survivor will *still* question her conscious memories, because again, the conflict of having been so deeply hurt by someone she may have (or was supposed to have) loved and trusted is too great. Please see "The Courage to Heal" by Laura Davis and Ellen Bass for the best book on surviving and recovering from the trauma of childhood sexual abuse. By the way, I am studying to be a self-defense teacher in an accreditation program in Portland. I have been practicing and teaching martial arts for 6 years (I am a black belt). So these are issues I have been studying for some time, both from an academic and a "practical" viewpoint. --Jessica ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jun 91 16:31:00 EST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Julia T Wood Subject: Re: rape on campus Your report on the discrepancies between women who have been raped by legal definition and the number who say yes to a question specifically asking that squares with a related study we conducted at UNC-Chapel Hill. We asked women faculty and graduate students if they had ever....then a series of items that fit the definition of sexual harassment (e.g., been subjected to lewd remarks, been treated differently because of your sex, been asked to engage in some sexual relationship with a colleague or professor). We found 24-90% of women checked having had various experiences, so 90% had at least one. Almost none said yes to the last question which was "HAve you ever been sexually harassed?" We're still in the process of NAMING these activities as crimes. The names have not been widely recognized so many women still don't realize rape or sexual harassment is not their personal problem, but a social problem for which there are means of redress. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jun 91 16:12:07 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Florence Ginsburg Subject: Re: rape on campus In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 28 Jun 91 11:38:44 PDT from Jessica, Thanks for the references, I will look into them. Do you have a month and year for the MS. article? I am working on child sexual abuse for my doctoral dissertation, and once again (addressed to all) if anyone has any references that addresses incest or child sexual abuse, I would appreciate hearing from you. Thanks again, Florence PTB101 at URIACC ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jun 91 16:45:24 GMT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: Linda Lopez McAlister/Hypatia Subject: Reference on Frat Rape The exact reference on fraternity gang rape that I and several others have alluded to is: FRATERNITY GANG RAPE: SEX, BROTHERHOOD, AND PRIVILEGE ON CAMPUS by Peggy Reeves Sanday. 1990. New York: New York University Press. (Bitnet: dllafaa@cfrvm Internet: dllafaa@cfrvm.cfr.usf.edu) (813) 974-5531 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jun 91 16:05:00 CST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "NAME'Janice M. Bogstad'" Subject: Re: _Regiment of Women_ I have used Regiment of Women in my dissertation-in-progress - in a chapter which deals with the role-reversal topos, historicall-mythologically and in modern anglo-american and french science fiction - it started out as a chapter and is being transformed into three. Regiment was a good case study because, like Fred Pohl's story "Day Milion", it reflects stereotypes of gender differentian that are already outdated while maintaining the core of the message - that of their arbitrariness and unreality to those separated, even by time, from the predominant cultural code - it then seems so obvious why science fiction novels have the manufactured space to reflect on this arbitrariness - sound like something you want to hear more about? (Sorry I was so long in replying, I have been on the Rosebud Sioux reservation for the last week and couldn't read muy e-mail - talk about cultural disjuncture - from sweatlodges to email) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jun 91 16:35:00 CST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "NAME'Janice M. Bogstad'" Subject: women in libraries I am also a librarian - currently I am in charge of acquisitions and collectio development at a university of 11000 students and am very intereseted in others, especially outsiders' perceptions of what our work is like. I recently spoke with a fairly knowledgeable and genuinely interested faculty member who has been at this university (Univ. of Wisconsin_eau Claire) for several years and thinks that librarians sit in their nice, quiet offices and drink coffee and read books - when I described my workday and responsibilities to him, he was astounded - especially when I pointed out that librarians rarely read on the job - and if they do its either professional magazines or reviews, also, when we read reviews, since there are so many, we have to read at breakneck speed just to do a good job - not to mention all the types of computers we use in a normal workday (a mimimum of four for me) and, in my case, the money management skills needed... It is, for me, a challenging job - one which uses all the resources of a considerable number of years of education (I had to have two masters degress and read/ speak three langauges in addition to English - Chinese, French and German) and wo was chosen for my broad background. Yet, the peception of librarians as clerks, with no creative or intellectual depth, persists and partly because it is considered to be a profession for women, who are not intellectually capable but can handle fine details. as the taiwanese would say, Ah-Yah!!!!! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jun 91 16:53:00 CST Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: "NAME'Janice M. Bogstad'" Subject: Re: oppression.... Sorry to reply so much later, but I really agree with the gist of you statements. I grew up considering myself to be 'better than other girls' because of a plethora of intellectual interests - I even got through undergraduate work that way, but when I became a grad student in Chinese all sorts of interesting things began to click together in my head. All of a suddent, I was being attacked on all fronts - told my mind was not capable of abstract thought, told it was not credit to a department to give me a graduate degree, criticised in class for my disinterest in battle narratives and interest in the fate of historical and literary Chinese women, interrupted, belittled (and I am 6"1" so that was a real feat), etc. etc. - thats when I began to understand the divide-and-conquoer method of dealing with intelligent women - you tell them they're almost good enougth to be men until they get too threatening, then you tell them they're just like those other girls who just couldn't cut it. I even had one pro- fessor tell me that women had to be four times as good as men at their studies if they expected to succeed. Here I am getting angry again - Joanna Russ's book The Female Man really helped me sort this out. Anyway, I'm doing fairly well now, due to a series of accidents and a lot of persistence and thought, but everytime I get complacent about how things are changing, I am reminded of the real world - Earlier, someone (I lost the message due to disk space overload) brought up the siliencing of women - the difficulties we have speaking out even in a suposedly non- hostile environment like the classroom (thank you, Dale Spender, for Man Made Language which saved my life as a grad student). For those of you who might think this is an inherent, and therefore, unchangeable trait, let me remind you of a little of our history - things may be a little better now, but a few decades do not wipe out the fears of centuries- there is an article in Summer 1991 (Vol. 42, No. 2) of Shakespeare Quarterly (cover and p. 179- 213, by Lynda E. Boose) called "Scolding Brides and Bridline Scolds: Taming the Women's Unruly Member". It discussed the use of a torture device called a scold's bridle,publicly used into the mid-19th century. It silenced a woman by depressing her tongue, often with things that cut it and her mouth. Small wonder that we have to relearn the use of our power of speech - this was not a device that was used on men, who were never guilty of scolding or being strident. (I thought more people should hear about this fine piece os of scholarship, especially given the way prominent women were treated at Sutor's hearing for the Supreme Court judgeship and in light of the fact that another liberal judge, the only black in the history of the Supreme Court, has just resigned-we really have a fight ahead of us.) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jun 91 16:36:19 PDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Kathryn Kerns I'm new at sending information to a list so here goes... 1> I think the Ms article you mean, is actually I Never Called it Rape, a book by Robin Warsaw (New York: Harper & Row, 1988. 2. As a reference librarian, I can identify with the other librarian who mentioned the need to educate others about what we do with our time and our qualifications. I once had a student ask me if I'd ever been to college (I have a BA, two masters & am working on a PhD, but there seems to be an impression that education is not required for what we do.) Oh, well... 3. I once did a study of sexual harrassment at another university where I was employed. I discovered that the junior and seniors were more willing to name something as sexual harrassment than the underclass (women & men). K. Kerns, Stanford University (cn.kmk@stanford) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jun 91 21:52:48 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Florence Subject: Re: rape on campus In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 28 Jun 91 16:31:00 EST from What I find of interest is,those that have been sexually assaulted/harassed have some sort of psychological distress are not connecting said distress with their sexual victimization? Hope this is clear, have a head cold! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jun 91 09:58:00 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: KIRSHENBLATT@NYUACF.BITNET Subject: Re: Cliff's message PLEASE unsubscribe bitnet%Kirshenblatt@nyuacf. I have tried to do this through listserv and they send the message back and say they can't. I'm in Italy for the next 5 weeks. PLEASE. Thx. BKG ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jun 91 19:18:08 EDT Reply-To: Women's Studies List Sender: Women's Studies List From: Christine_Blouch@UB.CC.UMICH.EDU Please unsubscribe blouch@ub.cc.umich.edu. Have also tried through listserv, will be gone. Sorry to send on network. Thank you.