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Conversation with Leopold Stokowski. This is another in a

continuing series of programs each of which offers the listener a rare

opportunity to hear an eminent musician informally discussing his own career

and expressing his thoughts about a variety of topics related to the art of music.

The regular participants in these discussions are Aaron Parsons professor of

music theory at Northwestern University School of Music and program annotator for the Chicago

Symphony Orchestra. And George Stone program director for Zenith radio

corporation's serious music station WEAA FM in Chicago.

Mr. Parsons and Mr. Stone I was their guest on today's program. Mr. Leopold Stokowski

who beginning in 1912 was conductor of the Philadelphia Orchestra for many years and

later of the all American Youth Orchestra. Also music director of Hollywood Bill

the Houston Symphony and the American Symphony Orchestra. Now

here is George Stone.

There's a chapter on in your book music for

all of us. There are two sentences which provide I think an excellent starting line for this

conversation. Conductors are born not made

norm out of academic education can make a real conductor out of someone who is not

born with the necessary qualities. I want to serve you tell us

what are these qualities.

They are very mysterious. One of them is

the willingness and the ability to

cooperate with other persons. And I think a

good performance of great music by an orchestra or

an orchestra is when each individual

in the orchestra is cooperating with all the others in the orchestra

and when all the artists in the orchestra are

cooperating with the conductor and he with them. So the

key word is cooperation.

When I've given a person with these innate qualities and the

ability to cooperate what qualities must be acquired.

There it is. Not so much quality as

experience I think. And it takes in my

opinion and many years of rehearsing and

conducting concerts in different countries

because every country has a different

personality in its orchestras and

to travel from one country to another. Not taking

one's orchestra with one but always

conducting the artists in the local LA Custer there is

very. It teaches one very much.

And that release that has been my experience and I think it's a

pleasure too because for example a few

months ago I was in Romagna conducting the orchestra there.

And that of course is behind the so-called Iron Curtain. Yes I swear there is

no iron curtain for music because music is international.

So I was very impressed. With the

fine quality of the orchestra there and I became

friends with some players in the orchestra and

they told me that nice places to go if I wanted to

eat some good food or drink some good wine. They told me all kinds of

things about their life there and

where I could see some of the find examples of architecture

of Ramanujan which is very extraordinary

and I was very impressed by the fact that there were money and

people are so havoc and yet

they are romantic when the Roman

soldiers came there a long time ago. They were very impressed. I

was told by the beauty of the Slavic girls

and soon the country was full of young

Romagna. And I noticed that the language.

Has many Slavic words like Polish words and also

many Italian sounding words. For example when they

bid each other good night they say they say I want to set up

a home which is purely Italian and there are other

Italian words like that which have survived almost

completely. And so there

is a culture a wonderful culture in that country

combining the best of Italy and Slavic nations

and the beauty and stamina of the people

is very remarkable. And also the greatness

and flexibility of the orchestra. So in my

opinion it is well for a conductor to travel

and conduct all kinds of orchestras even amateur

orchestras. Because if one conducts amateur or courteous

as I sometimes do that I learn very much

from the difficulties they have. The players have with their

instrument and also with the rhythm of the

music and of the blending of all the parts that they are

playing to make what we call our song. One learns very

much so if a young conductor would

conduct a great orchestra like this Chicago orchestra. It

would be so easy for him because the orchestra is great

and able to play so well any kind of music any

style of music. Whereas with an amateur or Custer

one has much more difficulty and it's just those difficulties from

which one learns.

I take it that you consider equally important

a broad cultural background that is equally important and has a

thorough grounding in music. Well you know for a man can be a real a complete

conductor.

Obviously it must be that. But you know I

think I'm wrong because as I think of it a

little deeper. I had a great friend Koussevitzky.

Yes of course the Wicki was a bass player.

He did not have a good education as

I was fortunate enough to have. And

he at first could not read the score.

So he persuaded two

pianists to play four hands scores for him

and he listened that way. Then gradually

as the years went along and he was with the Positively he did

learn to read score. But I

noticed that when he listened to the pianists

playing the music he was listening to the true

score. The true score is sound. The

paper score is paper but it's not sound music is

essentially sound and Koussevitzky. I learned

very much from him. It made me see clearly that a

man can have immense bone ability as because of its good had

to conduct and yet not have a general

education. Could not read scar

but his ears were so sensitive that when the four hands were

playing the music of squaws with his ears

he understood in some way

which is mysterious to me but it's a fact that he did understand.

They did conduct wonderfully music. Before he could read squat

afterwards he could read score. He just went on conducting well.

So it was not a question of score. It was something else.

And I cannot with words describe that something else

but it was extremely definite that this

extra good very talented man.

By his ears and his

impulse and his instinct was able

to conduct marvelously as he did.

What kind of training do you think is most important for a conductor

in in which in this level of thinking that you describe

here there must be certain kinds of musical experience or training

specifically musical which will add to this dimension.

Yes well I just think of one

thing very essential is to understand all the

instruments. They're all different. And.

If the conductor house a player to do something which is

contrary to the nature of his instrument then the

player becomes annoyed and

the results are not good. So a conductor must understand all the

instruments and that is almost a lifetime of study.

In my opinion getting back to what we said a moment ago I would judge

them. But in your opinion this indefinable something

which because of its keep was asked is that very thing of which you were

speaking. In the chapter on conducting in your book. Yes the man was born with it

as we can't lay our finger on it but this was what it is when everything about

human nature is mysterious.

The body is mysterious. We have

within the framework of our body we have a

heart beating with certain rhythm. We have the blood flowing at a

certain temple. We have the

impulses of the nervous system from the brain

to all the parts of the body. And I often think

my first instrument was vilely and I started when I was seven playing violin.

When.

Violinist's says to the left and play in the third position or the fifth

position or whatever it is it's the mind to tell said who and what to do

when he wants to play not bow down bow or speak out of

it's the mind that tells it all happens in the mind.

So all is this mysterious

extraordinary harmony that's within the human body

is all a part of playing an instrument well

and even more so conducting the modern orchestra because

conducting what an orchestra is extremely complex.

He's dreamy.

The life itself has become more complex too. Yes

recently an issue of a prominent national

magazine devoted a considerable amount of space to a discussion of the

young conductors and the problems they face. And as I recall one of the statements

that was made in the air is that conducting the

art and profession of conducting today is as different

from conducting 50 years ago as comparing an

astronaut with World War 1 pilot. In

your judgment having. Live through this

period in positions of eminence and constantly in the

mainstream of music would you feel that this is an apt

description that the whole role of the conductor has changed this

much.

Yes because a conductor must adapt

himself to the new conditions of life and the new conditions of

life according to those who understand

about economy and the new conditions are becoming

very serious. It was recently

out west and one orchestra almost collapsed because

of difficult conditions that one must see clearly

that if a man or a company makes automobiles

or planes or any kind of machinery or supplies

food he's doing all these things for humanity

but also for profit. Whereas every orchestral concert

that is performed in the United States is performed I don't loss

and it is that loss that deficit that has to be made up at the end of the

season. And that is becoming more and more difficult because

of higher taxation. According to The Economist

I don't understand these things very well but there are economists who have studied

given a whole lifetime of study to the economy of the nation

and with this higher taxation it might be that there would

be immense difficulty to continue

because through all performances because they are a luxury

they are not the physical necessity of life.

They are the necessity. It's true of the mind

which loves everything which is cultural by the people. There

are many who do not feel that way and so

I am very anxious for the future of the great Augustus of the United

States.

How would you feel Maestro Stokowski about some

kind of state support whether the federal government or the state

governments or even municipalities of our great

orchestras and other cultural institutions do you think this would be a desirable thing

or an undesirable thing.

May I ask you a question. If we had state or

federal help that would be

very costly of course.

Where would the money come from.

Well I assume it probably would come from taxes.

That's it.

Then you've answered your own question. I guess we don't get anything for nothing.

We were there and you were about to ask a question.

I've will change the direction a little bit

because.

We think of you has first an organist. No

violinist would you say you were a violinist as your wife.

I couldn't play organ until my legs were long enough for the

pedals. When I was a child I

used to play soccer with some boys and one of the boys.

His father was a priest and I was invited to the house

and then I heard the wonderful sound.

It was the organ playing in the church and I wanted to go in there and I went in there and what I wanted

to play that and they put me on the seat but my

legs were too short behind a low seat here in a high airfield out

of the question. It was several years before I

already played piano violin first and then piano and then

later organ.

But.

The point of seeing very one important thing

about AW Custer is string technique of the violins

violas the cellos and the double basses and they have

certain certain scenes in

common principles basic principles but they also have

certain differences and the conductor must understand those things.

You have then started with the violin and into piano and I

believe all the organ you were playing in the manuals and you gradually as your legs developed you

developed the ability to do the bark tree also not as a

prelude and you as in the other repertory.

Now when you turn to conducting you turn

to a in this in a way a similar kind of an instrument but

very obviously a very different one.

But what advantages do you have from your background of organ

playing where you have such a vast array of color shades shadings

to the orchestra as it is well it's very different

because with the organ it is often

difficult and sometimes impossible to make middle

voices like I'll talk to the voices. I already have.

And with your cursor it's much easier to do

that sometimes the violas or the cellos or the horns can bring out these little

voices very difficult to do I used to do it playing on four males at

the same time.

But there were limits to that too. To do it well.

And another thing is that if one

presses the key of the organ it

produces a certain tone because it makes the air go into a

pipe somewhere according to the stops and.

When we dock her struck the instruments. It's

different it's not a pipe which gives one kind of tone that

take the violas or the cellos on the horns or any instrument they've

forgot. For example many kinds of tones are possible and many

good additions of tone of of volume of

sound and many qualities and colorings of sound.

So the New York Kustra is much more complex

much much more complex than modern orchestra of course it

depends whether one is aware of all these

possibilities.

I hear sometimes a conductor just beats time were a good

argument. I don't beat time it is unnecessary they know it's 3 in about 0

5 in about 0 9 or whatever it is that event that is just

not conducting conducting is something much more important than that.

You know we think of you as a great innovator and one of the areas of

innovation that is in this effort to achieve a certain type of

sound or balance in the orchestra and we know that in the

days until that off you you tried various seating arrangements and

have you discovered what your ideal orchestral sound

is.

And you know out of all of this yours I mean Titian First of all it's

important to remember that the acoustic in every concert hall in the

world is different. Therefore the seating cannot be

I do not have a single conception of seating at all.

I directed to the concert hall.

This concert hall is different from what it was last time I was here. Some I don't know they've

changed something they haven't changed and I was wondering always differently what your reaction would be.

Well. This is a very big subject but

just mention a few things. Here you have the contrabass on

audience right. They are playing the tone away from the

listeners. Which is not intelligent.

It just isn't plain common sense. If they were on the

audience left then they would be playing to the

listeners and we need plenty of basic sound

from the double bases just like the middle of an organ which is the

foundation of the whole sound above of all the

different instruments. So that's one thing which must be considered.

It's the direction of sound instruments which is very not

neglected. For example French horn plays this way

and tone goes to the right downwards whether you like it or

not that's how it is these are the facts. Ture but

it all goes up which into the light. Just the opposite. To go here on CNN

which we must consider these differences flutes tone goes up

or both will go a lot this way.

Violin goes his way.

Cello goes this way and in the Viola said summer often on the wrong side of the

stage for the falls to the brain is out on bond a concert

hall because every enclosed space now we're in an enclosed space here.

That is if we would study it. There is a

fundamental sound wave to this enclosed space there is a very close

place you know a big place like this concert hall here.

It's basic but probably it's we do not hear that we

hear overtones we hear other parcels of that fundamental

and they are natural to that home sometimes. I'm sure you've

noticed suddenly one note I sharpen a B-flat that

stand out to promenade all the time is because you're just in one of those

nodal points your ears are another thing to remember is

everybody's ears are different. Everybody hears differently.

Everybody's right is different from a lefty that has been measured

by scientific instruments. So all these

things make it very complex and the old way of seating the

orchestra started with Haydn when he had a much smaller or close to

a very good one. Probably but it was

the first violins on this side of the second violins here that was

good in those times and that small place because I know the hallway he played

I visit there sometimes.

But to day with with just a few

violins with heightened today we have.

32 or 36 violins and they can all be massed

together sometime when you want something. Very probably that when from

from the leadline of middle Arctic sound. So it's very

complex. It's so complex that I don't know how to find

words to express it. But I feel it know it live in it but

I don't know how to say.

And there's your rehearsal hall such as here you are in a sense in a new

hall though you've been here at least five times before it has changed you.

You're constantly making adjustments during the rehearsal time to achieve the kind of

balance that you hear.

Yes so so that we write

melodic lines for instruments by the right degree of prominence.

And our door who is French and

which means that certain age limits must be lifted up and others must be depressed

otherwise they all. That sounds unclear. The

Sometimes I hear of very unclear performances.

The Right Things are not implemented. It's the same with painting.

I learnt very much from Reeves French impressionists.

There will be in the foreground some persons farther

back will be other persons who look smaller because of what you call

or stressed by perspective. Behind that is are some

houses farther back are some trees farther back

tops of hills farther back

some clouds of sky and so forth. So you have

planes but we have exactly the same thing in New York US

only some persons are not sensitive to it

or about able to make it that way.

Clear is a question of all yes

and relief because there is no question of really thought of there.

That is very extremely important and very neglected

so that when you have all certain passages of the Shostakovich 6 which you are

rehearsing getting ready to perform to tomorrow evening

there are certain contrapuntal elements where these this combined it of we would love to

go which does so well in this religious symphony that is extremely

complex counterpoint but not the kind of

counterpoint to teach in the schools.

It is more than kind of counterpoint something to try and leave

you very early to do your listening to a

conversation with Leopold's to KOSKY with Aaron Parsons and George Stone.

We pause ten seconds before station identification.