How to kick the habit

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From the 1968 Wisconsin workweek of health sponsored by the
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State Medical Society of Wisconsin and Wisconsin physicians service Blue
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Shield. We bring you another in a series of programs designed for teenagers
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and taking as its theme. Youth on a four day trip today a
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lecture I'm drug addiction and how to kick the habit. The
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two speakers Joel Cohen and Michael Tolson are both teenagers
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who did kick the habit and are now working with an organization of ex addicts called
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and counter incorporated. First we hear from Joel Cullen.
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Mr. Cohen you have to forgive my.
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Lack of. Having a professional attitude about speaking because I I don't do very
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much of it. And it's easier to speak sitting now and I guess but I have to bear with
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it. I'm really an ex teenager because I'm
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20.
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I glanced at the program in the title of our talk is supposed to be how to kick the habit.
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We hope to do or what I and I guess Michael hopes to do also is talk
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about something a little deeper than that because
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in one sense the way to kick a habit is to kick it because drugs
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are having a drug habit isn't really the problem. It's
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sort of symptomatic of a problem and we'll get into that later.
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I grew up in New York New York City.
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I guess when I was a kid I wasn't all that different from other kids I mean everybody has of time when he's
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young and has a lot of fears but most kids sort of talk to people about them or.
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Just find the way to deal with them. And I I guess that was the first problem I had
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was that I never really did. I never learned how. And
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I guess I was lacking a lot of the tools that people need to relate to each other. So I
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spent a lot of my time alone because I was pretty scared of people. I
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thought exactly know why. I just didn't much like being with people and felt
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uncomfortable talking to people and things. So I spent a lot of time alone.
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Reading and doing things like play ball a whole life.
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The earliest things I can remember about my childhood are being alone with or reading
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who are being in school. And again
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like there wasn't very much different in my childhood I guess than in a lot of years
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until I got to be I guess about 12 or 13 and
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going to junior high school and that's where I guess all my real fears started to come
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out. That's where people started to really sort of socialize and do things more than play
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basketball.
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And I guess I found it.
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I figured if I had to talk to people at all our total people would be easiest
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to talk to and I wasn't a conscious decision at the time I just thought it sort of got
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in with a crowd of people that did a lot of things to impress each other you know sort
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of crazy things like stealing cars and things like that and I
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guess I also had some kind of bad value system because I was sort of impressed by that
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myself.
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When I was I guess 12 or 13 I had my first experience with drugs in
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stealing cars and things of that sort. The first drug I took I guess was
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alcohol because alcohol is a drug. I started drinking
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a lot when I was 13. Just sort of all weekends.
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Going to parties where there was wine or beer.
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But during the week doing sort of. The periphery of responsible things that I had to
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do not to wind up in a reform school.
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I was in a special class in junior high school with there was supposed to be for really bright
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kids. And I always thought that I was put there by mistake.
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I duel a whole lot of work and so I just got through by the skin of my teeth
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and I think they made a mint another mistake in high school. I was put into an honors program
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and that's I guess where I really started to get messed up because the
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kids there were really really bright
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and really I guess a lot was expected of them
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you know and I felt like people were expecting a lot of me and I really couldn't put it out and I
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can produce you know and that really messed me up. So I
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got more involved with. I guess to what you would call crazier
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elements in the school. I stopped talking to people and was completely you know just
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come and go.
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To and from school.
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I did feel really uncomfortable with the people and I I began to
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see. After about a month there were like groups of
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people around the school that I was really impressed by I mean they really looked
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cool to me and it looked
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real easy because every they would do whatever they wanted like they didn't want to go to school they wouldn't go to
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school you know and I thought I was really hip. I thought that was you know
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independent and groovy you know now I look at it and I see it is really
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kind of bad behavior to get into. They sort of really don't care about the
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consequences of any of the things they did. And I guess that's where they were in so much trouble.
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But these are kids I got in with and it there were other things that attracted me to them too it was
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really easy to hang out with and because no one ever expected you to do anything that
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wasn't crazy. So if you were lazy as I was it was
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ok and.
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I started using drugs with about five or six years ago when I was 15
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just smoking pipe and just smoking fine. Even I sometimes say that
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smoking pot which is I guess a dangerous thing in and of itself. And
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first there was just no weekends in it. I never I never thought as I just
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everybody who uses drugs never thought that they would get into any trouble at all by using drugs.
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It struck me as being really an oculus in homeless first of all and second of all
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I guess I really liked it. Because as uptight as I was when I was small
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part I would be uptight any more and I guess that's one of the really bad things
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about drugs is the fact that they work. I mean they really do they make you feel better for the time
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being. They may take away your anxieties and of course when they
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come back that twice as bad. But what happened to me is I
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began to get really dependent on drugs. Shortly after I
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started smoking pot I started taking other drugs especially codeine.
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The names are drugs aren't that important or the particular chemicals. My
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feeling is that although people who smoke pot may think that they're a lot different to people who shoot
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heroin they're really not.
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I'll get into that in a few minutes. So
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I was 15 and I was in high school using drugs.
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Excuse me and not going to school very often.
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Then I guess when I was 15. Shortly after I began to use drugs. The first really
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bad thing happened to me and that was that a friend of mine was murdered.
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He bought some pills from somebody and they were full of poison and he died in
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school and they really shot at me
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because I first of all I never none of my contemporaries had ever died.
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I was but only you know people that were like really all died.
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I guess what it's more a logical thinking person would have done would have been to say
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well listen if he died using drugs that could happen to me so I better not use drugs.
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But I was in that kind of person. So what I said was.
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It's really lousy world so I better take more drugs and
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I stopped going to school completely at that time. Excuse
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me. I was finally just asked to leave school because they knew that I had been
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involved with this fellow who died and.
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I kicked around for a while. I don't work or anything
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that wasn't within my value system.
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I guess.
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My parents have been sending me to a psychiatrist when they found that I was using drugs
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and he told me I was emotionally disturbed.
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So. I said to myself well let's see if an emotionally disturbed I'm going to take
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some drugs I might do something that's crazy. So he did he did
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too much for me because he just provided another rationale for me. She People use drugs like
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I guess if any of you use drugs or have ever spoken to someone who does that tell you about
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how groovy drugs are and how they make you a beautiful sensitive expanded human
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being able to love and all that crap.
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Excuse me.
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Well that's really not true because when you take drugs you take drugs to avoid
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doing all those things. And that's that's sort of what happened to me.
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I had all that rational. I had I guess what you might call a hippie rationale of being
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a loving person. You know when I really didn't know what love was and if I had found out it probably
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would have scared me to just take more drugs.
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My parents then decided that the thing that was wrong with me was that I lived in a bad neighborhood.
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So we moved to a very nice middle class neighborhood and I went back to another school
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where I didn't know anybody and if my parents had been right I would have been OK
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because I would have done my schoolwork and gone on to college and you know like everybody else.
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But the problem wasn't really the neighborhood and it wasn't really my friends you know
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or the only environment was me. It was the kind of person I was. If you'd put me in normal
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Laskar I would have found drugs to take and if I hadn't this important thing if I
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had I would have found other ways not to grow up. Another way is to
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block out the things I was afraid of and not deal with them. So it's not really drugs
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at all it's drugs again or just the symptom. You know sometimes I
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hear parents or all the people say you know what SHE WOULDN'T HAVE DRUGS WHEN I WAS A
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KID. You know I I just sometimes wish I had been around and to find out
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what people did then to run away. So I know what to tell them.
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So I went I went to this new high school for a while and by now I've been taking drugs for
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about almost two years and I prided
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myself on the fact that I'd never taken heroin because I always said
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well I can small pot and take psychedelics and everything but at least I'm not a junkie because I don't take
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your own.
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And one fine day
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I just said to me it wasn't even a premeditated thing I didn't say well I will now go out and buy some
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heroin.
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Somebody came up to me and said hey I have some heroin do you want to use and I said sure.
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And that was it.
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I mean when I think about it now I guess I really am
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a frighteningly casual attitude towards my you know what I did with my life.
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So I started using heroin.
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That's when things really started to change for me I guess.
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Up until then it's been a big game. You know you hide from the police and you you have a
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lot of fun and you say all the cool words you know when you talk to people and people around you don't know
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what you're talking about because you're talking hip. You know when you play a lot of social
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games you know people use drugs often are heard to talk about the social
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games that are played in our society. Let me tell you when you use drugs you play three times as many.
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You really do.
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And they're even sicker.
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When I started using heroin it got to be more serious because I had to have money
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a lot of money pretty often and.
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I went downhill pretty fast I guess. I mean some people it takes years and it it took me half a
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year. My first scheme to get money was to sell drugs.
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So I was selling drugs and I had people working for me.
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I thought of myself as a businessman.
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I wasn't a good businessman because all the money I would make I would just put into my veins
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and pretty soon I had no money with which to buy the drugs to sell. So I was up tight
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because I I had a need and have the means with which to get it.
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So I had so little respect for myself at that time I
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I just went to a department store and I was going to start shoplifting. And he started trembling at the
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thought and I walked out.
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And then I started beating people
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for money not beating them physically but you know selling them fake drugs or
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taking your money and telling them I'd come back and never shown up. And that made a lot of enemies so I'd
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move around a lot. I guess I was getting kind of hard to live with because my
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parents sort of put me out. I also kicked around people's houses for a
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long time as long as they would let me stay.
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And then I had to find someplace else. And I spent a lot of nights in the bus terminal
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places like that all the time.
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Not saying to myself hey if I don't use drugs none of this would happen to me. It never occurred to
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me it might sound really weird now it sounds weird to me but I never thought boy if I went
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back to school and stop using drugs I could live decent. I never thought like that.
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My mind just working. Let's see what can I do to get drugs today.
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And finally I started taking things out of my parents house and
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selling them because I figured if.
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My parents went to jail was what I figured I
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would. I think I took the television and pointed it.
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I did a lot of really low things that I'm ashamed to talk about.
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And I was.
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Still not really stopping to think about what was happening to me.
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The thing that made me stop and think was one fine summer night
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about two years ago when I was it was a week after my
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18th birthday. Let me tell you about May 18th birthday. It was the worst
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birthday ever had in my life like everybody supposed have a good time when their birthday I remember.
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I mean how I was living at home and no place to go and the only birthday present was a junkie and bought me a
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big girl and I was pretty miserable at that time
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and it was a week after this that I took an
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overdose of heroin and I was really scared because I thought I was going to die
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and I was in the scariest part. The scariest part was when I found out that I was OK.
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I took heroin two more times that same night and the next day
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I said so what I said. I said
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Good Lord. My attitude towards my
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life is nowhere. I mean here I was saying anything I was saying
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you know please God if I if I don't die now I'll never take drugs again and an hour
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later I was doing it. And that really scared me.
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And I've been taking drugs for three years and this is the first time in three years I was more
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scared to use drugs than not to you know now it's like a significant
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change for me. And I was what I guess the beginning of my decision to do something
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about my life.
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I decided my thinking at the time was a little warped. And I said Well my
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problem is heroin. So if I stop taking heroin I'll be OK.
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So I had a set of works. That's what we used to call it a
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needle in an eye dropper and a baby's pacifier that she used to
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inject heroin. And I brought them over to a friend's house and I figured
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Listen I'll leave them with him. And he was a
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amphetamine user. I guess these days you call him a speed freak.
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And while I was there he shouted to me a phenom and this was a kid I'd grown up with and had known for a
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long time. He showed to me a phenom when he took an overdose and he
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fell down and was falling down he cut his head on a table and he was just
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laying there and all this blood and I said to myself he's going to die
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and I don't want to be here only those I just left.
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I pulled the needle out of his own door and
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I guess that was about the worst thing I ever did because he could have died. And I guess
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for practical purposes he did because a few weeks later he went into a mental hospital and
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he's been there since then.
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Ok the same day that happened my partner and the guy I guess my
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partner in crime or whatever got arrested for grand larceny
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and those three things happening within a week. If you told me that swimming across
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that lake would have made me a better person I would have done it I would have done anything that anybody told
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me at that point because that's how scared I was. I found out I wasn't the raft of
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dope fiend I thought I was I was just a scared little kid.
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And luckily I happened upon the right people. I ran into an old friend of mine
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who I used to get high with and he said Joe you're looking pretty
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bad. And I said yeah I feel bad. I told him what I've been known I
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had seen him in a year and he he looked really good he looked he had decent clothes and he looked pretty
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clean. And he told me that he had stopped taking drugs about six months before
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that and had with some other exotics started a program called Encounter.
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And I went down there. You have to understand at this
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time I wasn't thinking about never taking drugs again. My idea was just to clean up
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you know to put on some weight because I weighed up about one hundred seven pounds there
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and I was as tall as I am. I
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put on some weight and get a front you know a job so the police would look
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for me and then I would go out and learn how to use drugs responsibly.
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That was my idea. OK I was in a room with these people
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and I don't really know who they were. They frankly look like policemen to me
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and they asked me some questions about myself they said why did why do you take drugs. And I
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said well I'm emotionally disturbed we all started laughing at me you know. And they
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said Are you smart. And I said Yeah I really swore and told him I had a
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high IQ and I start laughing at me. And they said do you think you're a man and I said
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well I have a motorcycle and a whole lot of things and yeah. And then he really laughed at me
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and he said The only problems and I said no. And that broke him up.
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You know that really you know I know how to deal with that I was prepared for anything I was prepared
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because social workers would always give me all the sympathy and tears and stuff. And these people were just laughing
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at me and I don't know how to handle it you know. I kept looking in the door and it was getting
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closer and closer you know. Finally I found
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out that all these people are extraordinary acts. And the reason they were laughing at me was because they had been in my
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predicament a lot worse than I was and knew
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what I was saying wasn't true. You know they knew these were the games that I used to
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impress people and they told me that they said you
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think you're smart. Well what do you call a guy that doesn't have a place to live and keep sticking things
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into his body and he doesn't know if they're poison and runs away from the police. And isn't very
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happy I said That sounds like me. And he said well is that smart and I said
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no and I said What is it. So after about 20 minutes of wargames I finally admitted
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that it was stupid and that my behavior was stupid and
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I was stupid for acting that way.
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Then they asked me if I was if I thought I was a man again and I said yeah and they said
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where you live. And I said well woman care of my parents. They said who takes care of you
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who cooks who gives you money
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who makes you a bad mother. They said What do you call God is totally dependent on his mother.
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After another 20 minutes and word games I admitted that you call him a baby.
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And they said OK maybe your problem isn't that you're emotionally disturbed but that you're stupid and you act like a
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baby. And No really seriously if
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if those are the things that are wrong with me and they were I couldn't change them and I did
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if I was an emotionally disturbed person that means I wasn't responsible for my
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behavior I wasn't responsible for what happened to me. And the first thing I had to learn in encounter
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was that I was responsible for my behavior.
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And I started going to groups we call them encounter groups I guess is like group
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therapy except there's no psychiatrist or analyst or social worker
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or anybody of that ilk around. The groups are all run by our
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by ourselves by ex-drug addicts or people just people have been through our concept.
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In the groups I was told to get a job and I asked why and
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they said so you can get some self respect. And I said it's just a middle class game but I did it
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and I was told to go back to school. And I said why and I said so you can learn and I did.
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And I sort of took direction. That's what you get in Encounter in the beginning just a lot of direction.
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They told me that I had made the right decisions for myself. And then until I could learn they were going to make some
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of my decisions for me. And I guess my letting them do that was what saved my life
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because I stayed there and went to groups and worked them with the school and I
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cut off four male friends which was probably the hardest thing I had to do in the first year
[24:39 - 24:44]
was tell people that I thought were my friends. And at the time I really believed that they
[24:44 - 24:49]
were the only people in the world that were really good. But I would have nothing to do with them in the future
[24:49 - 24:54]
unless they came to the counter and start taking drugs. And of course none of them did.
[24:54 - 24:59]
So I was at that time I didn't have my drugs anymore a block out my
[24:59 - 25:04]
fears and to block out my loneliness. Plus an animal friends and
[25:04 - 25:10]
that in itself was enough to almost drive me back. But it didn't.
[25:10 - 25:15]
I really stuck it out so I was starting to gain some good feelings. And I never had those before my
[25:15 - 25:17]
life. And
[25:17 - 25:22]
I guess I was going to give them up for some drugs.
[25:22 - 25:30]
And then I went back to high school full time after about six months. I also had a lot of respect their
[25:30 - 25:35]
own encounter because I came into encounter three weeks after it started and I was the only person in
[25:35 - 25:40]
this day who came in at all during the first four or five months everyone else.
[25:40 - 25:45]
The program wasn't really together at the time because we were all pretty new at it and a lot
[25:45 - 25:48]
of people left and some of them are dead.
[25:48 - 25:54]
Some are in jail.
[25:54 - 25:59]
So I was feeling pretty happy then after about
[25:59 - 26:04]
a year of going to groups and going to school and
[26:04 - 26:08]
being involved in other functions and encounter.
[26:08 - 26:13]
Getting more responsibilities as I grew into it and I guess I was made a staff member
[26:13 - 26:21]
and I was that meant a lot to me because I was a first person a guy through the program that was made a staff member.
[26:21 - 26:26]
And I was only there for about five minutes but just to show you that I was in.
[26:26 - 26:30]
Well. I've been given a contract.
[26:30 - 26:37]
That as long as I were honest I was understaffed I had to maintain a certain average in school
[26:37 - 26:43]
and I didn't do it and I was suspended from the staff for
[26:43 - 26:47]
four months. You know what I think an encounter is
[26:47 - 26:53]
when you do the right thing when you do things that are good for you you feel good. And
[26:53 - 26:58]
one of my problems was that I felt good even when I didn't do the right thing or at least
[26:58 - 27:03]
at least I didn't feel bad. And in character sometimes we have artificial means to make
[27:03 - 27:11]
people feel that you know feel guilty about when they do something when we have something called a haircut.
[27:11 - 27:16]
Which is sort of ambiguous because they're If a person for instance uses it. We
[27:16 - 27:21]
have two rules in Encounter no chemicals and no physical violence. And in
[27:21 - 27:25]
Canada we have people that have expressed themselves with violence for their whole lives.
[27:25 - 27:30]
We've never had one act of violence encounter in two years. Never. If we did
[27:30 - 27:36]
we would deal with it. But we have it because it's like a family and I guess you
[27:36 - 27:38]
don't have people in your family unless you're a baby.
[27:38 - 27:48]
And no chemicals no drugs. If a person were to break one of those rules you might get a haircut
[27:48 - 27:53]
a haircut is when two or three of his peers in two or three staff members
[27:53 - 27:58]
were taken down in the basement and I guess just scream for about an hour.
[27:58 - 28:03]
Tell how stupid he was and how responsible and the purpose of it frankly is to make him
[28:03 - 28:07]
feel bad so he won't do it again because
[28:07 - 28:12]
again people encounter people use drugs in general are babies
[28:12 - 28:18]
who have to grow up and one way to grow up is if you do something wrong and you feel bad enough the next
[28:18 - 28:23]
time you won't do it. I never got any hair cuts like that. I had some
[28:23 - 28:28]
rough groups where Michael tell you more about what goes
[28:28 - 28:33]
on in a group but what we do basically is we sit around after about two or three hours a couple
[28:33 - 28:37]
times a week and talk about our our behavior
[28:37 - 28:42]
mostly And what we have to change in our feelings and after we've changed some of our behavior then we can
[28:42 - 28:47]
start to deal with our feelings and or makes us feel good in bed and things like
[28:47 - 28:52]
that. And
[28:52 - 28:57]
then after I graduated from high school I guess you know I was back
[28:57 - 29:02]
I went back to work for Encounter. I graduated from high school last
[29:02 - 29:08]
June. I also graduated from encounter where an official graduation two weeks before
[29:08 - 29:13]
that and frankly the uncracked the graduation from encounter meant a lot meant
[29:13 - 29:18]
a lot more to me. It was really a painful thing that
[29:18 - 29:23]
six of us graduated and we had sort of I had to be you know
[29:23 - 29:28]
really corny and dramatic but it just really struck me that we'd sort of pull each other out in the mud
[29:28 - 29:35]
and we all fell pretty close to each other. And it was a beautiful experience.
[29:35 - 29:40]
When I worked for encounter all summer my I worked with Mike in induction that was
[29:40 - 29:45]
taking in new members and I had some other functions are functions
[29:45 - 29:49]
very staff and I guess part of the concept of
[29:49 - 29:54]
encounter is growth. And for me to stay in character would have been growth for me because I was
[29:54 - 29:59]
beginning to feel really comfortable there. You know just relating in that way and I
[29:59 - 30:04]
know for me at the age of 20 I should be doing other things. So I started
[30:04 - 30:08]
college last week in a small experiment the college in New York
[30:08 - 30:14]
and. I don't work for Encounter anymore. I mean it's
[30:14 - 30:19]
still my family you know and I can still go back when I want to and I don't know really forget it.
[30:19 - 30:26]
I'm going to stop now. Michael talk for on their
[30:26 - 30:28]
list of questions thank you.
[30:28 - 30:51]
Hi I'm Mike. And Ikes teenagers here I'm 21 stone
[30:51 - 30:56]
and I'm also not an an ex-addict as you think I never used hard drugs
[30:56 - 31:02]
and I think that's important too in talking to her because like a lot of things Joe
[31:02 - 31:07]
said a very real and honest. I mean I laughed too with some of the things he said. They same time
[31:07 - 31:11]
I laughed I felt something shoot right through me like a pain because I thought about things he
[31:11 - 31:16]
said. See like I came out of a very secure middle class background myself
[31:16 - 31:21]
and my reaction to that kind of thing the almost like minor accident things I see on TV.
[31:21 - 31:26]
But one thing I've learned in the last year or so is that these things are real you know and I know
[31:26 - 31:31]
people who have died because of drugs and now people who are in prison you
[31:31 - 31:36]
know people I love. You know and these things are real and I think
[31:36 - 31:40]
that you know we still talking and me talking. She member that we're
[31:40 - 31:45]
here and we're talking about our lives but the people were really talking about are you because we're all the
[31:45 - 31:50]
same and the things are the same we're no different from anyone of you anything is different and we happen to
[31:50 - 31:56]
use drugs.
[31:56 - 32:03]
I guess I want to start out by if you say something about my life too and I'll tell you something about a pound.
[32:03 - 32:08]
I never used drugs in high school or even in my first year of college for that
[32:08 - 32:12]
matter in high school I was an honor student and straight A's and and I went on a
[32:12 - 32:19]
scholarship to the University of Chicago which is near here I am going to physics student.
[32:19 - 32:26]
And so my background was one where I never I knew nothing about drugs and he's not in
[32:26 - 32:31]
high school. Nothing about any drugs. And I heard about junkies and I thought
[32:31 - 32:36]
there are these very slimy you know black things that crawled out from under
[32:36 - 32:40]
garbage cans and everything and stuck filthy needles in their arms and we something far less than
[32:40 - 32:45]
human. You know and that was frankly my idea about it
[32:45 - 32:49]
maybe it's your idea to do with drug use
[32:49 - 32:55]
and if I was what I thought I'd tell you came one myself.
[32:55 - 33:06]
I don't have a lot of stories to tell. About things that happened to me. I suppose I
[33:06 - 33:10]
did and I did things that were bad things that hurt me hurt things that hurt other
[33:10 - 33:11]
people.
[33:11 - 33:16]
I think first of all I want to talk about more than my biography of what I did is like a biography of my
[33:16 - 33:20]
feelings because like Joel when I reached
[33:20 - 33:26]
junior high school age I became very conscious conscious that I was living in a social world you know
[33:26 - 33:30]
on and people going to parties and everything and guys around me that I you know used to play
[33:30 - 33:35]
with is starting to get girlfriends and I was really scared by the whole thing.
[33:35 - 33:40]
I was really frightened much the same way I feel frightened by not talking or a lot of people
[33:40 - 33:47]
and my reaction was one to sort of run away I tried I tried to become part of you know I tried to
[33:47 - 33:52]
go to the parties and I was always put down because I was were little was a runty and.
[33:52 - 33:58]
I remember one day and we had to do push ups and I can't even do one pushup and nobody laughed at me.
[33:58 - 34:03]
And so it's funny now that I think about it then it really crushed me. And so I
[34:03 - 34:08]
I we started to feel alone even then I stuck by myself a lot. And I felt bad about
[34:08 - 34:13]
myself you know because I didn't have a girlfriend and I wasn't going to the parties you know. I
[34:13 - 34:18]
didn't have a lot of friends and I needed a way to feel good about myself and the way I
[34:18 - 34:23]
found to feel good about myself. Well as you know I discovered that I could do
[34:23 - 34:28]
well in school and and I was put in honors classes things and I was told
[34:28 - 34:34]
I was a bright student and I had potential as garbage.
[34:34 - 34:39]
And I hung onto that for a long time maybe maybe I still haven't let go of it entirely.
[34:39 - 34:44]
I hung on it all the way through high school that you know and I became a lonelier and
[34:44 - 34:48]
lonelier person. And I I didn't have real friends
[34:48 - 34:53]
real friends not people I was close to. And I developed a very at arrogant
[34:53 - 34:58]
and cynical attitude towards people. Not that was real I pretended that I was above
[34:58 - 35:03]
people I acted like I was above people I was better than people I thought I was fantastically brilliant
[35:03 - 35:09]
you know. And you know and tried to feel good about myself and it didn't
[35:09 - 35:14]
work because really I felt I felt very small. I felt very alone and
[35:14 - 35:19]
it didn't matter if I got you know the best grades in school and I got scholarships and all this because I still
[35:19 - 35:23]
felt alone. When I got to college it was even worse
[35:23 - 35:29]
you know because then I saw people also to people I thought were really cool very interesting
[35:29 - 35:29]
people.
[35:29 - 35:35]
This is the University of Chicago.
[35:35 - 35:39]
And I've met a lot of New York hippies and a lot of people from Chicago who are really cool
[35:39 - 35:44]
and they use drugs and I was so naive that I didn't even know what I know once I went into a room
[35:44 - 35:50]
and I opened a humidor you know and I saw this green tobacco and I looked I saw a green tobacco
[35:50 - 35:55]
and in closing I went away and I realized it was marijuana. And I can also say that a
[35:55 - 36:00]
lot of the drug traffic went from the University of Chicago to the University of Wisconsin and I know
[36:00 - 36:04]
that I know people of that sort here.
[36:04 - 36:10]
So I was still alone and I still didn't want to face it and I still didn't go out
[36:10 - 36:14]
and go on dates. You know I stuck to myself and I did.
[36:14 - 36:18]
I even started to mess up in school work because I was lazy. And I didn't get
[36:18 - 36:23]
A's anymore. I was also very curious about drugs
[36:23 - 36:28]
you know because I started to do a reading and I read about you know
[36:28 - 36:34]
LSD and their wine and read things by Timothy Leary and things like this.
[36:34 - 36:39]
I was very curious about him people told me how they expanded their consciousness
[36:39 - 36:43]
is and how they saw the Buddha nature and cetera et cetera et
[36:43 - 36:49]
cetera and I thought this was a big thing and I really was interested and I was very very curious about it.
[36:49 - 36:54]
And I had a lot of curiosity about taking drugs and so finally this was
[36:54 - 37:00]
towards the end of my first year in college somebody you know offered me a chance to teach it
[37:00 - 37:04]
to take LSD. And I jumped at it because I wanted to you know I wanted
[37:04 - 37:09]
Also I had a lot of feelings I wanted to do something was different. I wanted to feel something
[37:09 - 37:13]
special and I liked it. And that's one thing I'll say about
[37:13 - 37:18]
drugs and I like taking drugs. I enjoy it a lot. I never had a bad
[37:18 - 37:23]
drug experience. And it's fun to get high. You know makes you feel good. And Joel
[37:23 - 37:24]
says a word.
[37:24 - 37:32]
Then my second year of college I went to school in California because I changed my
[37:32 - 37:37]
major I didn't have money and then I started using drugs
[37:37 - 37:42]
a lot more. Now it's the marijuana.
[37:42 - 37:47]
You started out only using it maybe on weekends smoking marijuana out of it on weekends and
[37:47 - 37:52]
maybe once a month or so I took a chip and I thought you know I thought I had control over my life
[37:52 - 37:57]
and I thought that I was a person who had taken my life in
[37:57 - 38:02]
stock and I was going to school and I thought I was learning something about myself from taking
[38:02 - 38:06]
drugs and I could have been mistaken more. But a lot of things were
[38:06 - 38:10]
happening to me too in my life. I was still the same lonely person.
[38:10 - 38:20]
I still didn't have many friends and I didn't feel very good about myself
[38:20 - 38:26]
and so I found when I was high that I felt good. You know what I found when I was high I
[38:26 - 38:31]
didn't feel so lonely and so I stopped going Hi more and more often to reach a point. The end
[38:31 - 38:36]
of last year or the year before last when I was high all the time and practically all day every
[38:36 - 38:40]
day either on marijuana or I was taking chips two three times a
[38:40 - 38:45]
week and it didn't make me feel better in the
[38:45 - 38:50]
long run though because every time I came down you know I
[38:50 - 38:55]
wasn't the enlightened person I was and the person with the expanded consciousness or the new perception I was just
[38:55 - 39:00]
lonely. Again I was all by myself and I felt bad about myself about this
[39:00 - 39:05]
time. I met I met a girl in California and I fell in love
[39:05 - 39:09]
with her. And we were playing get married and she didn't
[39:09 - 39:11]
use drugs.
[39:11 - 39:16]
And I did and I was very anxious for her to take drugs with me I guess sort of like misery loves
[39:16 - 39:16]
company.
[39:16 - 39:25]
And she said that she didn't let me take drugs she thought she said she thought it was stupid and she thought it was
[39:25 - 39:30]
dangerous and I was I was jeopardizing her career and my
[39:30 - 39:35]
own school and she had about become a teacher but I didn't pay any attention to
[39:35 - 39:40]
what I thought a lot of pressure on her and I think back now I think those were always cruel of
[39:40 - 39:48]
me because you know I got a black eye on us that we don't love me if you don't want to get high with me.
[39:48 - 39:52]
And like finally she couldn't take anymore she she she got high with me.
[39:52 - 39:57]
Your time with it was just too much on her fine and she said Mike he says I can't I don't want to
[39:57 - 40:02]
see you ever again we were going to marry. And she says you know you
[40:02 - 40:07]
used to be responsible you don't offer me any security.
[40:07 - 40:10]
And I say this just emphasize something Joe said.
[40:10 - 40:18]
About being stupid. Because she warned me a lot that I
[40:18 - 40:23]
was doing something that was wrong and I really cared about her more than I cared about anything else in the world.
[40:23 - 40:28]
And still I didn't care about her and even more about myself enough to stop getting
[40:28 - 40:33]
high because I like getting high. I was reacting like a baby. You know I want to get high I
[40:33 - 40:38]
want to feel good and I think you know what the consequences were. And things happen to me
[40:38 - 40:43]
that should have taught me a lesson too and they didn't. I was stopped by the police
[40:43 - 40:48]
twice and searched when I had drugs on me. And both times they just didn't notice
[40:48 - 40:52]
the pain going into. You know and it scared me temporarily and I said to myself I'm
[40:52 - 40:57]
21 I can get high anymore and the same with drugs. I don't want to go to jail. And I went back and used
[40:57 - 41:01]
drugs again.
[41:01 - 41:04]
My friends got arrested.
[41:04 - 41:08]
And one one person I took a chip with flipped out completely went totally crazy
[41:08 - 41:14]
and spent four or five hours screaming hysterically you know and at that frightened
[41:14 - 41:17]
me. And but only for the moment I never paid attention I never learned.
[41:17 - 41:25]
I never and I never really learned because I cut back and went back at using drugs. And I did lots of very
[41:25 - 41:30]
very stupid things I think about now and they scare me. Maybe you know I.
[41:30 - 41:35]
Was thinking about how dull it's been pretty good in Congress. And I started thinking
[41:35 - 41:40]
about a lot of things when he was talking and I start remembering a lot of feelings I had. And right now I
[41:40 - 41:44]
feel pretty serious about the things I'm talking about because there are serious things for me are remember once
[41:44 - 41:50]
I took my girlfriend riding a motorcycle at night we were both high on LSD
[41:50 - 41:56]
and I couldn't even see the road it was turning changing colors and swimming around and I was going
[41:56 - 42:01]
70 80 miles an hour a night on the freeway and I thought I thought it was fun. You know I
[42:01 - 42:06]
thought it was a big gas. You know I thought is really exciting you know. And that's how stupid I
[42:06 - 42:11]
was because you know like anything could have happened I could've been dead it could've killed her I could've killed myself. I
[42:11 - 42:15]
know people who died that way. And still I didn't think you know it was just Big game
[42:15 - 42:20]
big you know fun and games type things. So when she when she broke up
[42:20 - 42:25]
with me you know I couldn't. I really just felt horrible and I've always had a habit of
[42:25 - 42:30]
running away from things I felt bad about. So I ran away from them from California packed up a
[42:30 - 42:35]
backpack and I hitchhiked across the country. And I stayed high the whole time.
[42:35 - 42:40]
And I came close to being busted in Chicago the day after I left. The people I was staying with
[42:40 - 42:45]
got busted by the federal agents with a quarter of a million dollars of our stay in their car me
[42:45 - 42:54]
and I didn't think about that I thought that was sort of a joke you know. And I came to New York.
[42:54 - 42:59]
My sister was involved in encounters she didn't use drugs but
[42:59 - 43:04]
she was involved in what we have called the community part of the program where people who. Are in the community and
[43:04 - 43:09]
concerned about are concerned about the drug use and the drugs themselves and they help think to speak in
[43:09 - 43:14]
groups. So one night you know I was thing in New York for a couple weeks I was going to go onto
[43:14 - 43:19]
to Mexico I had a lot of LSD with me that I wanted to sell to people. And she
[43:19 - 43:23]
sort of chick means coming down to encounter he said she'd meet me there to go to a concert
[43:23 - 43:29]
and then we'd go and I went down there to meet her and she didn't show up and I was
[43:29 - 43:34]
sitting down there and thinking I was pretty cool I was wearing boots and my levis and look like
[43:34 - 43:39]
me looking like a mess. And there's some people sitting in a circle
[43:39 - 43:44]
talking and I heard overheard and they're talking about drugs. And I heard you know
[43:44 - 43:49]
in terms grass used to be like then. And so I went over and I sat down with them because I really
[43:49 - 43:54]
really dug this kind of I really dug talking about drugs. I remember in
[43:54 - 43:59]
California I once went to a symposium on drug use sort of similar to this a lot smaller. Where some
[43:59 - 44:04]
people got up you know and we're talking about you know things that happen in
[44:04 - 44:08]
their lives and I laughed at them I sent it back around I laughed because I thought it was so funny. You know they were
[44:08 - 44:13]
telling about the lies and that I was laughing you think it was funny that I was a big joke. And so I went in
[44:13 - 44:18]
and I sat down and Connor and I talk to people. And we started
[44:18 - 44:23]
rapping about drugs and I was talking about LSD you know saying how good it was and how much I learned about
[44:23 - 44:28]
myself. And. How it expanded my consciousness and a lot of things I said which are
[44:28 - 44:30]
just garbage.
[44:30 - 44:36]
And this is very fine because I was on my own ground you know I like being arguments about with
[44:36 - 44:40]
people I like discussions about things that are always done it changed.
[44:40 - 44:47]
You know that the tone of the conversation changed I found myself sitting a circle of about 15 or 20 people
[44:47 - 44:51]
who were saying some things to me they were saying what are you doing with your life Mike.
[44:51 - 44:57]
Where are you going. I dropped out of college and walked out and all my finals got mess.
[44:57 - 45:02]
You know I had gone from you know straight A's to F's you know I was
[45:02 - 45:07]
miserable in the girlfriend the person I love very much it just left
[45:07 - 45:09]
me.
[45:09 - 45:14]
I was filthy and I was broke. I was alone
[45:14 - 45:20]
and I was talking about how group in my life was and I said this
[45:20 - 45:22]
look at yourself.
[45:22 - 45:27]
And look at you you know look what you've done with your life and I they called me things that confronted me very strongly.
[45:27 - 45:32]
Confrontation is something that takes place in Qana quite a bit. I told me that I was a baby
[45:32 - 45:38]
and he told me that I was stupid. And they told me when I said that I thought I had learned a lot about
[45:38 - 45:43]
myself taking drugs that I was a liar and all of these things are things that me with
[45:43 - 45:47]
my middle class background they didn't like at all. You know they they bothered me disturb me.
[45:47 - 45:52]
And so I sort of green which is my way of handling things that I'm uptight about.
[45:52 - 45:57]
And you know I left that evening you know saying a bunch of square creeps you know
[45:57 - 46:00]
go all crazy and they don't know what they're talking about.
[46:00 - 46:05]
And I'm still really cool and I'm going no more things around but I also thought you
[46:05 - 46:10]
know a little. And I realized in my head I was saying those things but my gut
[46:10 - 46:16]
things were different. And it really hit home because that's what they said was essentially true.
[46:16 - 46:20]
That's the kind of person I was. I was alone I was frightened
[46:20 - 46:26]
I didn't know what was happening in my life or somebody. So I never used hard drugs and I never used
[46:26 - 46:31]
heroin or codeine or anything like that. You know if somebody
[46:31 - 46:36]
had offered me a needle at that time and I was stuck in my arms and I would have done anything as a matter of
[46:36 - 46:41]
fact. You know I would have thought about it you know I
[46:41 - 46:44]
would have done it without compunction I know that I know that's why I was in terms of my feeling.
[46:44 - 46:51]
And so I stuck around and counted I decided well try it out for a couple weeks you know. I thought it was
[46:51 - 46:57]
interesting. This is what I told my you know people talked I said What seems interesting you
[46:57 - 47:01]
know. So that was a defense for me. You know I was defending the fact that we really
[47:01 - 47:06]
felt shaken up inside it or we realized something was wrong with my life. So I stayed for
[47:06 - 47:11]
two weeks and then I decided to stay for the summer. And then I started to feel
[47:11 - 47:16]
things I had never felt before. I could never remember feeling before I start to feel close to
[47:16 - 47:20]
people. I started to feel some warmth from people. I started to feel a little love from
[47:20 - 47:25]
people. I started to feel a little love for people too and I started to feel a little better about
[47:25 - 47:30]
myself. So last the end of last summer. And I
[47:30 - 47:35]
made a decision which I think is probably the most important decision I ever make in my life. And that
[47:35 - 47:39]
was a decision not to return to California and go to school I know I would have started using drugs again.
[47:39 - 47:45]
But the stain encounter and so I stayed in New York and I've been in a counter ever since
[47:45 - 47:51]
last April I was hired I'm a staff member and I want to working part time now because I'm going to
[47:51 - 47:56]
college full time and I'll be leaving in counter to I'm a graduate. I want to work in
[47:56 - 48:01]
there for the next few months. And I'm not saying even
[48:01 - 48:06]
that. You know like. I'm you know totally different
[48:06 - 48:11]
person. It was a lot of me that's changed a lot of me has changed counties really
[48:11 - 48:16]
helped me a lot. And now I have a number of friends and I get a lot of people
[48:16 - 48:21]
I really feel close to and now I have the ability to express my feelings to express the feelings I
[48:21 - 48:25]
always wanted to express to the people around me to say to people hey you hurt me
[48:25 - 48:30]
or I like you or I'd like you to be my friend. Very very simple things
[48:30 - 48:35]
here there's nothing very complicated about what goes on in a counter.
[48:35 - 48:40]
Very The simplest things in life are the hardest things to do it was not hard for me to stop using drugs I stopped the day I
[48:40 - 48:45]
wanted to encounter what it was hard for me to do things like get up courage to go on dates
[48:45 - 48:50]
you know because I had been put down by girls you know to to get up the courage to speak
[48:50 - 48:55]
to people. You know. I would have never done this year ago never
[48:55 - 48:59]
spoken any but I would run away and hit my head and something.
[48:59 - 49:08]
And I still have a lot of problems in your life. You know life isn't south for me. You know
[49:08 - 49:13]
I'm going back to school and that's a Scranton thing you know it's hard it's a lot of work I
[49:13 - 49:18]
have to support myself you know. And I know a lot of more
[49:18 - 49:22]
difficult thing is going to come up in my life but now I know at least I have one thing I know I'll never
[49:22 - 49:27]
never have to run away from. The things that happen to me anymore. You know now I feel
[49:27 - 49:31]
something inside of me that's different something that says I care about myself
[49:31 - 49:37]
enough to do a hard thing to do difficult things to change my life to make my life
[49:37 - 49:42]
a better thing. I'd like to talk a little bit
[49:42 - 49:48]
about encounter and some of the things that happened and some things are basic to the
[49:48 - 49:52]
concept of what we call the concept of encounter.
[49:52 - 49:58]
The purpose of encounter is on a one purpose encounter it's not to. You could say
[49:58 - 50:03]
it's to rehabilitate drug addicts. And I don't think it would be correct I think
[50:03 - 50:08]
because it's much more basic than that. There are
[50:08 - 50:13]
three year three goals we strive for and encounter for any person.
[50:13 - 50:18]
The first of those is to love. And that doesn't necessarily mean
[50:18 - 50:22]
romantic love. It means to love genuinely and to love
[50:22 - 50:27]
responsibly. To love somebody enough. Unlike some
[50:27 - 50:32]
parents in a program of done to throw your own child in jail
[50:32 - 50:37]
because you are using drugs and messing up their lives to do to love somebody enough to do really
[50:37 - 50:41]
difficult things to confront somebody to
[50:41 - 50:46]
yell at them like a haircut you know do you say you take somebody to go to the basement you know it's somebody I
[50:46 - 50:51]
have to do that a lot. You know as a staff member and I don't like it because it's very painful it's
[50:51 - 50:56]
a hard thing to do. So sure when people I care about. You know. But that's the best
[50:56 - 51:01]
thing for that person a lot of people think that love means well anything goes I love you and you can
[51:01 - 51:06]
do anything you can you know you can act crazy and destroy yourself but I love you anyway. We don't
[51:06 - 51:11]
believe in that. That's called unconditional love. We believe in what we call responsible concern.
[51:11 - 51:16]
So the first goal in Connor is to enable people to love. The second goal is
[51:16 - 51:21]
to enable people to be loved to feel loved. And that's something
[51:21 - 51:25]
you know it's still hard for me to feel and I know I am loved.
[51:25 - 51:31]
But it's a hard thing to feel when it's a new it was a very very new thing for me too and I
[51:31 - 51:36]
imagine a lot of people have that feeling. No one loves them. Very difficult thing to
[51:36 - 51:41]
feel and it's very difficult thing to grow to the point where you can respect yourself
[51:41 - 51:46]
enough. And that ties in with the third goal of Encounter which is to feel self esteem
[51:46 - 51:51]
to love yourself. And that for me was the hardest thing because I was hated myself. You know
[51:51 - 51:56]
I can hope through high school I hated myself I thought I was nobody. I thought I was a nothing.
[51:56 - 52:01]
And the hardest thing to do harder than ever ever kicking any habit or you know going straight or
[52:01 - 52:06]
anything is to really believe in yourself because a person who sticks a needle in a
[52:06 - 52:11]
person gets high even who smokes pot at to if the person doing
[52:11 - 52:15]
that tells me they don't believe in themself. Really does.
[52:15 - 52:25]
Some other things about the concept of accounting don't mention in passing that
[52:25 - 52:30]
there are no psychiatry to anything understand and that most people are
[52:30 - 52:35]
people who use drugs. I think the. Most
[52:35 - 52:40]
basic concept most basic fact in concert with encounter is that a behavioral change.
[52:40 - 52:45]
You know a lot of people like Paul said he went to a psychiatrist and the guy said he was you know emotionally disturbed
[52:45 - 52:50]
you know that's really groovy and you know you can be emotionally disturbed and still be using drugs. You know you
[52:50 - 52:56]
can be emotionally disturbed and still be cutting your wrist and all sorts of things we do not accept that kind of behavior.
[52:56 - 53:01]
We refuse to accept. What we call acting out behavior. That means we refuse to
[53:01 - 53:06]
accept the use of drugs. We refuse to accept you know any kind of crazy behavior.
[53:06 - 53:11]
That first thing a person has to do if they come to encounter is stop using drugs or stop
[53:11 - 53:16]
doing whatever they did in their life that was destructive that meant cutting classes not going to
[53:16 - 53:21]
school you have to go to school. That meant not working. You have to work. And we
[53:21 - 53:27]
believe that. You could talk you know until the you're blue in the face about.
[53:27 - 53:31]
You know how bad you feel and everything else. But if you don't change your behavior your feelings will never
[53:31 - 53:36]
change. For me the behavioral change was to get up you know just go out
[53:36 - 53:41]
meet people and talk to people to get the courage to go to a dance and ask somebody to dance and ask
[53:41 - 53:46]
ask a girl out or something. I think about it now it's almost funny you know because I can do that now and it's no
[53:46 - 53:52]
problem my still a problem and I get a lot.
[53:52 - 53:57]
And you know that was the basic
[53:57 - 54:02]
behavior change I had to do because I was I was a very lonely person when I first came to sit in a corner read books all the time and never
[54:02 - 54:06]
talk to anybody you know. And I have to talk to people and I have to do all the things that really harm
[54:06 - 54:11]
other people. It's much more serious maybe they have to. Stop using drugs of
[54:11 - 54:16]
course they have to go to school they have to work they have to pursue those things that will make them a
[54:16 - 54:20]
better person. We have another part a concept whose
[54:20 - 54:24]
responsibility you have to be responsible to yourself
[54:24 - 54:30]
and that I think that word is almost self-explanatory. That means you know
[54:30 - 54:35]
we don't have. People who are afraid of reading and other people encounter. If I see something that Joe is
[54:35 - 54:39]
doing wrong encounter you know I first go to Joe and I say hey Joe don't do that that's
[54:39 - 54:44]
wrong. And then if you persist in doing it you know I can take him into a group and confront him
[54:44 - 54:49]
there or I could tell other people and I want to say OK Joe I like you and I could tell anybody
[54:49 - 54:54]
you know that you're getting high or something like this that doesn't happen in color and it
[54:54 - 54:59]
ties in with nothing it's part of the concept which is confrontation which is a very difficult thing for everybody to
[54:59 - 55:04]
do. I think our whole society is hung up about this. Confronting people around
[55:04 - 55:09]
us. You see somebody you know you really care about around you doing something that's wrong
[55:09 - 55:15]
you're fraid to tell them. You know you don't want to make them dislike you.
[55:15 - 55:20]
You don't want to make them you know hate you or think you're a creep or something like that so you don't say hey you're stupid for
[55:20 - 55:24]
getting high and you're doing something that's really crazy. But that's something we
[55:24 - 55:28]
have to do and something we have to learn to do and encounter.
[55:28 - 55:37]
In groups we have group sessions which is an important part of encounter.
[55:37 - 55:41]
Anything goes is basically the rule in groups. What we expect and
[55:41 - 55:46]
demand is honesty from people. You don't say I feel
[55:46 - 55:51]
internally impoverished. Here's a good example Joe. You say
[55:51 - 55:56]
I feel bad. I feel unhappy. That's what honesty is. Honesty
[55:56 - 56:00]
says instead of saying. I find your personality
[56:00 - 56:05]
somewhat antagonistic to somebody instead of saying that you say hey I don't like
[56:05 - 56:10]
you. I really hate what you're doing. Or instead of
[56:10 - 56:15]
talking to be honest and say you hurt me. That takes a lot of courage to tell somebody that they have that kind of power that
[56:15 - 56:20]
they hurt you. That's honesty. The other thing it's very useful It
[56:20 - 56:25]
happens in groups is identified cation we've all been through the same things. Somebody says hey I feel
[56:25 - 56:29]
really really bad about such and such and somebody else says so to y so raw you know but I did
[56:29 - 56:34]
this and maybe you can do that. I saw groups you encounter is nothing
[56:34 - 56:39]
special there's nothing no secret to it. All encounter is a process
[56:39 - 56:44]
number one of growing up for people. You know growing up we may be 20 or
[56:44 - 56:49]
25 or 30 or 15. But when we come to encounter you know
[56:49 - 56:53]
we're all infants because we need to grow up we need to do things we should've done
[56:53 - 56:55]
a lot longer before.
[56:55 - 57:06]
I'm very confused and I can't remember what I was going to say so I won't.
[57:06 - 57:12]
Rather than go on about encounter because none of you will know there are very few of you ever
[57:12 - 57:18]
again after me being counted as only one encounter in this in New York I want to read something to you.
[57:18 - 57:23]
Which has a lot of meaning to me and I think you should listen to it closely. This isn't county's philosophy
[57:23 - 57:28]
it's something it's borrowed from. Emerson.
[57:28 - 57:34]
We are here because there is no refuge. Finally from ourselves.
[57:34 - 57:40]
Until a person confronts himself in the eyes and the hearts of others he's running.
[57:40 - 57:45]
Until he suffers them to share his secrets. He has no safety from them
[57:45 - 57:52]
afraid to be known. He can know neither himself nor others.
[57:52 - 57:57]
Where else can our common ground. Can we find such a mirror.
[57:57 - 58:02]
Here. Together we can appear at last clearly to
[58:02 - 58:06]
ourselves not as a giant in our dreams where the door of our
[58:06 - 58:11]
theories but as a man part of a whole with a share in
[58:11 - 58:15]
its purposes. Here together we can at last take root and grow a
[58:15 - 58:20]
lot. Not alone anymore as in death. To live to ourselves and to
[58:20 - 58:22]
others. Thank you.
[58:22 - 58:30]
You've been listening to Michael Tolson and Joel Cohen
[58:30 - 58:35]
members of encounter incorporated a group of ex drug addicts as they
[58:35 - 58:40]
discussed how to kick the habit. They originally spoke before a
[58:40 - 58:44]
teenage audience during the 1968 Wisconsin work week of Health a
[58:44 - 58:49]
project sponsored by the State Medical Society of Wisconsin. And there was guns and
[58:49 - 58:54]
physicians service Blue Shield. This program was made available by W.
[58:54 - 58:59]
H A the University of Wisconsin. This is the national educational radio
[58:59 - 58:59]
network.