Program 3

The Duquesne University Alumni Association presents

exploring the child's world.

The the child is father to the man.

And as we hope for a world of men of good will we must look to the conditions of the child's where to

achieve it.

So we search for the laws ways and means the sources of the capable spontaneously hole of

doubt. It is not strange that the world of the disturbed child throws light on

childhood in general. Although Father Francis Duffy Professor of Sociology at Duquesne

University was not at first looking for this light when he started working with a disturbed

child. He found however that it is not that the disturbed or delinquent

child is completely removed from society rather that his position is more

extreme and so its obviousness offers us a sharper clearer

insight into the world of children to share the fruit of his research.

Father Duffy and the Duquesne University Alumni Association present a series of

recorded interviews with delinquent children followed by a short discussion with Father Duffy's

guest in which the child and his problems are explored for insight. And

now here is Father Duffy.

Marlene is presently in Allegheny County juvenile court detention home.

She sees her father as part time husband to her mother and part time bachelor. This

man and his wife have unconsciously conspired to spoil Marlene.

She's wild an independent she's always in trouble.

She's preoccupied with trying to draw attention and affection from her father. And since her

efforts do not succeed she runs away just to show him she resents

rejects and rebels against all authority as it appears in the person of police

detention home personnel and teachers in school.

She is sort of spoiled into the same time disowned only time will tell whether or not she

fits into a system of activities that we like to call the tragedy pattern.

What did you say your name was again. Morning. How old are you Marlene.

Fifteen.

You still go to school and. Yes. Are you in public school or private Procul

Catholic Academy.

And how do you do there. OK. What's your best subject.

What do you like best. Recess recess. I imagine your vacation too.

OK what do you like the least what's the most troublesome flea

that because the teacher or the subject matter or study too hard

to state kind of all the bugs that I see. Do you have any

behavior problems in school or your behavior problems. You know what

about a home. Sometimes what you think you do that

your parents approve of. Well when time comes to cleaning that

I always make myself scarce and I see how many children in a family

five counting myself as at three boys and two girls.

What's the combination there. There's my sister and I three boys. Where do

you fit it in age. Well I got a brother Frank and he's 12

and a brother oh he's 18 he's in the army.

My brother Butch He's 22.

Your sister Mary. She's Mary and myself. Mary had no children she

just married lately.

She's just married.

This is the first time you were ever here. Yes I see.

Yeah isn't it. Now while we're here for this time I ran away

from Gilmer school you didn't like it there you know where

that demands to severe weather to my limits or were you homesick or I was just the

girls and I was homesick. It wasn't a place it's a nice place isn't call it's a beautiful

place now and that's if they're real nice. But you couldn't stand the girls and you know they were

always fighting and they're fighting with you. Well they were just arguing now

that it gets tiresome after you hear it. You get in a fight

here as well where once in a while

I was bad as it was out getting married you know and I was busy going Mary.

Well you were here before what was that for. I stayed out all night one

night and I thought I ran away but I didn't.

Well you did stay all night where you stay and my girlfriend Tess

and was at The only trouble you were ever in. I got expelled from school now

for misbehaving or what. Yeah for misbehaving it wasn't for lack of

break ins or anything in that area you know. Do you do pretty well in school.

I get Bs and Cs.

And what did you want to be when you.

Well I get my GED more dance and I want to go back to school and finish school.

Soon as I finish school I want to join the service.

You're doing it in the Air Force the Army or I want to be in the Air Force.

Do you think that you have a better chance of getting into the air force if you went in as a nurse or if you

had some kind of a skill.

Well I don't know yet but I want to be no nurse. How about telling

me something that happened to you when you were a real little girl before you even went to school.

You must be able to think of something.

There is this time my girlfriend Mary she lives next door to me and I was playing in the

yard and my mother told me not to pick the flowers you know we had flowers and Rosemary I wanted

it and I would letter you know so she came in my yard she got real mad at me. She picked

up a stone started beat me with it.

My mother had to stop her Fanny when she stopped I was all bleeding. My eye was all cut

so they had to take me to the hospital and I got four stitches on account of her.

When your face is what I read about my eyebrow because it doesn't show does it.

Well part of my eyebrow is gone. What

else do you remember from when you were a girl. Oh

me and my brother Frank on the it's current favor who aren't allowed to touch anything. So

when I wanted something he made sure there was a hole in it and I would have one piece of string and he'd have the other

piece in each side to make that mistake.

Yeah thank you notes.

Is there anything that you remember from your early life that would involve your mother or your father

or both.

No except we always used it when I was small and you know he was all younger if we never

went out.

None of us hardly ever went out because you know the whole family would always be home watching television

except for once a week my mother would go out Bingo on Saturday night my dad to go play

poker with all his friends. Your dad a drinker's you see much

of a drink. No not no more. He used to be there before.

He drank a lot before but not now.

When you were little I was small.

Do you think that that's some of the reason of your being afraid or are terrified.

Did he get angry did he put any display or fireworks on when you were little. Well I

used you know he never touched me he never hits me never

does my mother.

What scared you so much when he used to be drinking.

I don't know when he would come home you know. Then me and my mother would always be scared because you know

he might smoke and drop a cigarette or something like that.

Maybe put the house on fire.

So when he came home we laid out for now we go to bed. Now when he got to

bed we get a bed he said we're about now

he don't drink no more.

So is this the only father you ever had and the only

mother.

They're both Catholics I take it. Yes.

Morning who's the bad one in the family.

Me Really. Yeah. Nobody else ever got and I travel safe my

brother Putsch and even in school he played hockey once and my dad.

There was no trouble.

Yeah when the boys get that's all. That's all anybody ever did.

But she's about 22 or so.

Did he did he is he a drinker you know he's got a wife and baby now. Oh I see

my dad. You look like him too.

Yeah.

Both girls me and my sister Mary and me. They both got blond hair and blue eyes. Everybody in the

family but the three boys got all dark hair like my mother.

And do you resemble your dad in other ways too. Yeah.

He used to be wild and that you know before and you have I'm hard now.

I magine he approves of you doesn't it. Yeah but he's sort of Mad Max I ran away from Gil

marionette.

In general do your parents usually approve of what you do and what you are what you decide.

Your friends sometimes I mean you know the way you dress and me in the way you talk.

Well if it's my hearing that my mother always yells because you know the new style that where hi and that

I wear She says My head looks like a cannon ball and all that and most of my friends she

approves of but you know when I go out with a boy but my parents have to meet him before I go out

and then you know that I can now tell me you know that like them and I was

protective. Do they usually not like him. Well then like most of my you know friends in

that except for a few. This is the only trouble when you've ever been in what you told

me.

Yeah that's oh that's enough.

Would you say that you have screaming parents do they scream a lot.

No they don't. Well I mean like now she holler at me and say well that's what I mean how

impaired. Now I mean she don't you know she'll talk to me.

How did I do that.

Why did I do it and all that. What would you tell her when she says why did you do

this and why did you do that.

Well when she asked me why I ran away from Gil Mary I just told her

because of the girls and she says oh well now look at you what you're going to have to put up with when you get more

Gansa I mean like at Gilmer's No not my boys up there.

I snowboard you know and you know you know a girl has to get out with a boy in there.

And lately there's been boys on our grounds you know because up go my There's all hordes of them

all that that's all there is.

So usually when girls up there see boys they all take after them. The girls gone wild.

There was only about two boys up there once in about 70 some girls took after two boys they

stood organza will associate with them you know go to dances and parties and that

but boys haven't been your trouble you never had to with boys or you know

did you ever do any drinking. So I used to it was a lot or

just a party snap. He still you know I

don't do it anymore it's too much trouble drinking cause you gotta carry gotta hurry up and get

sober by the time we get home. Otherwise what will happen. My dad would yell at me and my

mother and I wouldn't be allowed out for about two weeks. You never got

involved in running away from home or a family. Yeah that once did you.

Yeah I was up there three times now. Oh I see I just knew about to invent

where was my first time up here. I ran away from him. I don't know

where you go then from where I was living out my girlfriend. Then her

parents think to call your parents up let them know where you were. Her parents I mean

she you know she was older she was 18 she was on around so I said

she didn't know nothing.

Was she a very nice girl. Yes yes real nice and you just moved in with her.

How long was that. Did that last from Sunday afternoon until Thursday.

She go out to work. Yeah she worked from 7:00 in the morning till 3. She was a waitress

wasn't she afraid of harboring you when you're on the run that way.

Now I told her I was going to get myself up and I did on Thursday.

Do you think your parents approve of you in general.

Yeah you get enough attention at home in comparison with the other children the

younger ones especially. Well yeah they don't seem to like them better than they do you

know my parents like all of us you know.

Do they show.

Yeah.

How do they show it.

Well I mean usually when I want something I usually got it. So

what you're saying is that they show they love you by giving you things.

Yeah you know what I wanted like it was some I was going to a dance or something like that and it was

like my brother Franklin and I used to take turns doing dishes you know. Now when it was

like he don't for me says you know I could be ready I said.

And sometimes my father would take us over the dance when you know we didn't have a ride over

and which one of the children does like you do you think.

FRANKEN frankly. Yeah. Which one of the children is opposite.

Are all girls pretty close to you an agent.

Franklin's younger.

Did you ever have any big scares Morely.

Yeah I got expelled from school. Your freedom your

freedom was around going home you didn't go home. I didn't go home for about four hours afterward

I finally went home and my mother just talked to me and that night I didn't go to school for my 30

first till September. Then I started the academy. You don't think your parents

put you in the academy to get rid of you to make you behave.

Well my mother always wanted me to go to a Catholic school. And what did you always want to

do. I want to get a Protestant I mean public yeah public school.

And Mama one. Yeah. Temporarily.

Yeah and then you got yourself out of there. Wish I was still on there.

It doesn't look so bad now to be in parochial school. Well I mean I'm glad you know she's

still with me and all that because if she wasn't I wouldn't want to do an ad that your

mother had but can't bite your nails. I am nervous I'm so nervous

you know nervous because you're talking to me right now to Mars my hearing that's why I'm scarred.

What else happens that makes you scared or nervous do you have any scary dreams.

No I dream nice dreams. Anything else scares you. Are you afraid that your

head die or that your bad health or anything like that. If I'm going to get fat because

I gained so much weight how much do you weigh do you mind telling

140 and you're 15 years old I'm 50.

Do you think there's anything what else.

Well kind of what kind of parents would you want to have. Mine the kind that you have already.

When you get married would you like to be the same kind of mother and have the same kind of husband as your father.

Yeah I mean I want the same kind of you know husband my father is now but I don't want to go through what my

mother went through when he was drinking and that and I hope I don't have kids like me.

But the one that I want to go through what my mother's gone through that's pretty difficult

on her with you and pop you never complains you know. Tuesday she

scared me when she came out.

Tuesday she was and I was going to take me home when I was gone.

I was real scared they were going to take you home you know.

Then what happened.

Well then she came up on Saturday and she was crying and all that she says you know she was only

saying that and she's going to have all my clothes ready.

You know a lot of possible and all that and I felt real good.

Well she seems to want you more now that it's apparent she's not going to have you. Yes that does she have any

kind of nerve trouble too as well as you.

Yeah she just got operated on. Well what was that for you know she had

cataracts and before she got the operation did she have any fears

it might be cancer or something. Well I think so.

She also had bad nerves.

Yeah she's real nervous.

Does he take any kind of medicine to quiet her down. Yeah she takes these pills. I don't know

whether for them and your nerves at all but you take any

medication needed. Now what about smoking you smoke regularly. Yeah.

And how old were you when you started at 14.

Is there anything else which shows that more ganja

it was your out there or out of there.

Out away from there. Yeah. It isn't very pleasant I guess for a little girl.

Well no I wouldn't let it scare me either very much.

Well you know I heard rumors it wasn't too bad because some my friends were visiting up there and I says

it wasn't bad.

Your claim you get good food wear your own clothes get regular school

and I believe they do teach you a lot of things and some of these things would probably make you more

attractive to the Air Force. Some skills.

While I think it's about time that you are free to go to business. Yeah all right.

And now joining father Duffy to discuss the features of this child's world is his guest

Mr. Patrick Tamilians director of the Domestic Relations Court of Allegheny County

and an alumnus of three schools of the University College of Wright's graduate school and law school.

Here are Father Duffy And Mr. Patrick to Melia.

It's a real pleasure to welcome to day Mr. Patrick to know you are one of our Duquesne University

along eye who is presently director of the Domestic Relations Court and he has

gone through under first psychology and sociology in the Major and

in the master's program and finally graduated from the Duke University

Law School in 1989. Today we've heard this case

of Marlene 15 years of age.

I want to know as an expert in this field who has come up through juvenile

court work and extensive other. So if you were going to Tiffany's

What was your impression about Marlene. She fairly typical do you think Father this

this type of problem in children is perhaps one of the most difficult ones to

resolve.

If I recall my experience as a as a probation officer as follows and the entire Department of

Juvenile Court when they got to check a problem of a child running away and you just don't

know how to approach it.

Again with my experience would lead me to believe that running away is adjusting for

this child.

It may be that the home situation has certain emotional overtones

she can't resolve them there and she begins seeking satisfaction outside of the

home.

The difficult part is to determine what the factors are in the home

which are creating a problem and then trying somehow to resolve them so that she can

once again fit into the homes with your patients. And frankly I believe in many cases this can't be

done.

You cannot be delayed it can't be done you can't get the girl of the boy back into the home situation at

least during this developmental stage of adolescence.

With any degree of certainty or with any hope of an adequate adjustment.

In other words you're saying in effect that there are certain need to do is child has they may be

normal or abnormal whatever they are they're not being met at home.

And she runs away so that they will be met somewhere else by somebody else. Yes that's true

and this problem I think is more typical of

a girl for wanting to find more girls running away. And

perhaps you also find it in the area where most of the financial needs are met in

the family and there are no real pressing problems concerning what the child is going to have to wear and even

things like that have at least a need to believe it had any right to their

arm. Many more emotional factors involved than purely the

financial things that you find in the low economic situation where children become violent or are

they still I think by and shoplifting do things of that type. Also in this case I've

noticed that there is quite a bit of Father definition Her

father has been typified as the wild one and she

herself says I am like my father.

I am the wild one.

So perhaps even unconsciously through her life what she has done something

that might have been out of the ordinary. And perhaps because of a

strong facial resemblance to her father her mother somebody said well you're just like

your dad. And she acquires a dedication that she's going to try to live up to

and it's the image of herself that other people impose on her and yet she is

mixed in her feelings towards him. She says that she likes him very much it's obvious she does.

But also she didn't approve of him all the time he used to be a heavy drinker and she didn't like that. Well that's

so but I think what she's trying to do she's trying to rationalize in her mind.

Here's inadequacies with the fact that she wants to have desirable parents she wants

parents whom she can point to to her friends her associates or people in the

school or in the community as being good people she she believes of course this

drinking problem. It makes him somewhat undesirable but she says now he has

stopped it. And I don't want my husband to do this.

And I realize it's not good but he has been good to me and I like him and I would want my

husband to be like him except for the drinking.

So she she wants to accept them she wants them to be acceptable to everyone in the community as

well as herself. I feel too that you have put your finger on the real

problem here or the real situation and that is that this child once

something and I think it's an emotional tie of some kind possibly affection or

approval or if she wants to be liked. The reason I

say that is that this child which you couldn't know at the moment has tried suicide three

different times and this is another form of course of running away because she always gets

miraculously saved before the thing is lethal or before she gets a lethal dose of it or she takes

something which could not kill her although it does make her sick. And then the family comes rushing to her

help.

Also you notice that she's a nail biter. She has some pretty bad memory she she

remembers her early recollections of being hurt being injured. The world is a

place it is terrifying. She gets terror she has

fear fire especially connect with her father again. So it's as if she's

asking them to run to her and pick her up and this is getting more difficult because she is a pretty

stout girl.

I think you would see something in that to a 15 year old you know given where he pounds. You know

I've seen a number of children who have had this overweight problem

and just about every case that I'm aware of that had strong emotional

anxiety feelings and they resolved this by saturating themselves with sweets

candy food ads or what have you.

But this is again the symptom of this underlying problem now. Where did it start and how

to start. That's the thing you've got to try to determine and then the other thing the other clue

I think that we can point to is the fact that when she ran away according to your

conversation with her she went to stay with an 18 year old or a girl whom she

approved obviously a very nice girl.

But this girl appeared to satisfy the need she was not receiving at

home that perhaps the girl was not demanding anything of or imposing

restrictions on her and she just went there and she lived as she pleased and

it's very common in these cases that these people attach themselves to

another adulterer a person somewhat older than you are.

As an accepting person as a substitute for the parent I have the undesirable home

situation and there began to. This girl may be meeting some needs of the other girl

hinds for companionship on a kind of a non pay basis.

That's that's true of it when you get an 18 year old girl who's living on her own.

Immediately you start to look for problems.

That's why I mentioned out there some of these situations can't be resolved within the home

structure because in order to do that you've got to reform the entire

environment within the home which in these instances is first virtually impossible.

No more means parents seem to sense this I think because they are in effect saying they really don't want to be

home.

They have spoiled or they don't know how to stop spoiling her now they can't indulge too

much further because the father is out of work.

So I think as the natural punishment spoiling a child is that you don't seem to be able to

know how set up limits if you never did it before you set up limits for the child and the child will either

buck the limits or run his girl.

That's one of the things I believe that anybody who's worked in the field and as you know or anybody who has done

research in this area will tell you that you must. And stably limits

and these limits limits must apply according to the needs of the child from the day it's born to the day its

independence.

If you don't have these limits then the child doesn't have the property that the child demands that if he doesn't

find it he's going to in some way try to kick over the apple cart so that somebody

imposes limits on it.

There's another thing in his situation it's that I think is important. The fact that when you ask morning what

do you want to do. Now what.

What are your future plans. Do you want to graduate from school.

Then she wants to go into the service why does she want to go into the service. She's looking for a structured

situation where she can have somebody impose some limits on her

where she can have a reasonable amount of freedom but yet somebody will tell her what to do

and I think she is answering the question herself as to

what should be done with Marlene. Somebody has got to impose adequate supervision of this

girl for her own good she realizes that she can't impose on herself.

She's heavy She's overeats she has no self-control. And then her

parents are doing directly opposite to what her basic needs are

and they are giving her what she wants they may take her places they do things for her

according to her demands. But I think what she is demanding now is some support some help so

that her anxieties can be relieved.

And very often children having Zygi because they have no routine they have no adequate

supervision.

And consequently at this moment then the outlook for a girl like this doesn't seem

anything other than bleak.

You well I would say it is precisely bleak but I

do believe and I don't want to say this in a way of predicting anything

that if Martin goes back to her parents that she's going to be back at the court in a

very short time and probably the problem will be much more severe. On the other hand if she

marries prematurely you would see a kind of a tragic marriage.

Yes most certainly and my position has that the director of the Domestic Relations

Division kind of court gives me the opportunity to see many many of these situations and

it's also true that these people seek marriage

prematurely before they're ready because they are running away there they run away to a marriage

and then create the same problem for themselves and their children that they have been through and they perpetuate this whole

pattern.

And they wind up in your office they most certainly will with far greater tragedy than

what Martin has not just because it will be children involved to essentially in a year or two. I'd like

to thank you very much Mr. to know you and I hope we're going to be able to have you back next week to give us some

further clues to understanding these very very interesting and

sometime prophetic children.

You have been listening to exploring the child's world. The program in which the child

speaks.

Father Francis Duffy Professor of Sociology at Duquesne University has conducted the interview with the

child and to find the outlines of this world in the discussion with his guest Mr. Patrick

to meet again.

This has been a presentation of the radio service of Duquesne University in cooperation with the Kings

alumni association. Technical director Fred McWilliams program director an

announcer or older man listen again next week or another in the series

exploring the child's world.

The interview heard on this program was a recreation exploring the child's world is

distributed by the National Association of educational broadcasters. This is the

enemy B Radio Network.