Program 10

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The Duquesne University Alumni Association presents.
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Exploring a child's world.
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The child is father to the man. And as we hope for a world of men of good will we must
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look to the conditions of the towns where to achieve it. So we search for the
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laws ways and means the sources of the capable spontaneously whole adult.
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It is not strange that the world of the disturbed child throws light on childhood in general. Although
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Father Francis Duffy Professor of Sociology at Duquesne University was not at first looking for
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this light when he started working with a disturbed child. He found however
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that it is not that the disturbed or delinquent child is completely removed from society
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rather that his position is more extreme and so its obviousness offers us
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a sharper clearer insight into the world of children to share the
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fruit of his research. Father Duffy and the Duquesne University Alumni Association
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present a series of recorded interviews with delinquent children followed by a short discussion with
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Father Duffy's guest in which the child and his problems are explored for insight.
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And now here is Father Duffy.
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Children are not little adults. We have different generic names for children and for
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adults. An old man is not an aged boy nor an old baby. It even
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sounds strange when an adult retains a nickname that he acquired as a child.
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Adults often drop the suffix junior when the father dies. The same
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thing kind of applies to clothing. A child never looks quite right when he's dressed as an
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adult. And on that point girls may dress up to look like mother.
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Boys rarely if ever dress up to look like Dad. Boys prefer
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fantastic costumes that are indicative of some kind of calling or career or
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occupation which is pretty far removed from their real future job.
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Men are oriented around their work. Women are oriented around their husbands and their
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homes and their children. It's a different can of worms However if there is
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no father in the home or if the mother has made him an object of ridicule
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contempt whether present or absent then the little girl in a way follow
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suit. She will not begin to prepare herself to be a mother and a wife.
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Very often she will begin to substitute some kind of career to replace marriage.
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If the parent's marriage hasn't worked out. In the following interview
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Fanny's mother and father are divorced. The mother has often ridiculed the Father within
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hearing of the child. The girl has already veered away from thoughts of marriage and
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home. She wants to be a nun or a nurse. She chooses to do her deep thinking in a
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cemetery. She runs away when placed in an institution. The
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family has had few successes to give her satisfaction or courage. She wants desperately to
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return to her fatherless home. Here then is the story of Fanny.
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What's your first name again Fanny. How did you happen to
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come here this time.
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You were here we talked before to get together doing
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what happened since last time we talked you know nothing
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cept I cry and everything.
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I guess you have a lot of company A lot of the children here cry.
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Not all of them just some of them may come back when visiting usually cry.
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My mother came yes I mean last night and she asked me if I would be good when I
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came home and I told her yes I said. She told me I'd have to go to school and
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everything and I told her I would.
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That's agreeable to you to go to school. Originally they thought though you try to
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run away who's not. Yes you were in some kind of home
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Protestant home.
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Yes. Until I think it was just temporarily until school was over or to June or
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May.
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And I thought you try to run away from home and one of the men there so you brought you over here.
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Yes. He's a father a parent everything that I have. I went down to the shopping
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center as I told you before and I called up and I didn't have any intentions of running away.
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You were calling your mother from the shopping center.
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Yes. And I started calling up and she says wait down there. And I
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says Do you know where I'm at. She says Aren't you in this in the drug store.
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My daughter yes. And she says wait down there and I'll send down after you.
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And so I walked out and I didn't see nobody. So I went back and I went behind the car that
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I was looking at things and I saw this man coming up and he came up to me and he grabbed my
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arm and he says What do you think you're doing Fanny.
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And I says I don't know. He says No I says I wasn't going I was
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going to run away. And he says well what what was you going to do.
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And I jotted down just one comment and we got in the car and
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I back up to the homies and he called my probation officer and said that I
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try to run away and she says well let her stay there and don't get her on
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dressed or anything and I'll call you back. So a little while later she called back and she told
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him to for me to get my stuff I mean everything I see and it should be
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here a juvenile court when I got here and he says all right you hung up.
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They both hung up and he came in and told me and I went up stairs and gathered up my pajamas and
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Bob and things came back down and we knew we was right here and
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when we got here I was sitting in the office. I think Mr. A Mr. Wright was there
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yes. And he says he told me he says What's your name.
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And then after a while he came in and he says I just talked to your worker on the phone and
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she said she can't come in tonight. She said she'll be in the first thing tomorrow morning to see
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and I says all right and then I sat there and you came me and I was talking to me. And
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then after Mr. Ray came over and he asked me if I had anything to eat and
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I told him No says I didn't eat very much for supper. He asked if I
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wanted something and I said as just a glass of milk and a piece of bread or something
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and he says all right and then I came and misallocating
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Mrs. Allen came in and took me back to the party. She checked me and everything and then I went in and went to
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sleep.
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And before that should you have been at school when you were down this drugstore.
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No yeah that was it night after school and you weren't allowed out from a
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place where you were. Yes we were allowed out. I mean it was
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just like oh we're going to hell. But if you want to go out you have to tell them where you were going
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how long you'd be and had you told them where you're going.
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And that well maybe that's what got them confused made them think you're going to run away.
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How do you do in school for me.
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OK I've been doing good in this school locker junior high school.
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What grade you didn't know anything. And how old were you again.
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Fourteen. How did you get along at home.
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Did you all at school except for the teacher. But nobody will believe
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me about that but it's true.
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The teacher gives you a difficult time and makes life hard for you.
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If they want to go home I think I'd go better because I'll probably be in my cousins room in high
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school.
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What would she do would you make fun of you were you my cousin you know the teacher
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or the teacher or did I have now if I wouldn't have the one you had before that one that you had the
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trouble with well what did she.
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Well yes if I went back there now I'm going back to the grade I was in. Yes I
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think she would. But in a way I don't think she would. And the way I did.
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What did this teacher do that made you feel unpleasant or uncomfortable in her class.
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Well just before every time we used to have a test she used to call me up in front of the room
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and she went so fast on the problems that it got me confused in everything and if
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I missed one she says Well that's right you're the stupidest one in the room and you
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turned me around and everybody was staring at me and everything and laughing and then she
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says if you don't want to do your homework I bet I bet you can do it in juvenile court.
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And I just got tired of it and I tried to explain to my mother and she begged me to go to
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school to go to school and everything and I will listen because if I
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go home this time I listened to her.
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So how was it home before. Do you have a big family or a small
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family.
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We used to live in a bad neighborhood. Oh my mother has four rooms and a
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bath and she lives in an apartment going mother and my sisters have their
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room and I have my and there's the living room and then there's the kitchen.
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You have these three little sisters. What about you father whatever happened to him
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worse.
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Well I don't know I don't care about my father just as long as I'm with my mother.
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But he ran away too or what.
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No I think he walked out on my mother or something.
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But she says that she could do without a second I or she has you and
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the other girls no.
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You know the person people I want to be with is my mother and my grandmother and my sisters.
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Does your grandmother live with you.
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She Lucy has a place. She comes up sometimes to visit us and
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she stays the night she guess. Sometimes she sleeps she
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stays she sleeps on the couch.
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Oh where's her husband. Your granddad died
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and did you have a lot of girlfriends.
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Yes I have a boyfriend. Oh I don't care for boyfriends because I think I'm too young
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to go with the many you know I'm going to weigh in Tom about 16.
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Let's say you're 14 now.
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I came up to the hoss and play records and everything. When I was home on Easter these boys
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from my class thanking him played records and everything was out in the
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new house or the old one or the new one.
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And they brought pop potato chips. I mean my sisters had a nice time. My mother did to
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my mother made a cake that my grandmother may have pie. We was having a nice time I said.
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And I I it's hard for everybody to leave.
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Yes it is I guess you really were never away from home before where you know
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almost I stayed away from her I was three or four days that's all.
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Do you have a career in mind what you like to be when you get older. A nurse would you
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as a Catholic I think I'd want to be a not something where you
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you think it's because you want to be alone or is it to be with a lot of people who would like you
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and do pleasant work.
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I want to be a nurse because then I want to help people make their families well
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make their families happy and everything.
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Would that be because you needed help and couldn't get it.
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Wow now I just want to make it sound as if there is a little
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boy that got hurt in everything their family was his family this poor anyway.
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I think a nurse could do better and try to make them well take care of them and
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I want to be a nun because I don't have this because I want to be a nun.
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Do you know much about what nuns do. What kind of lives they lead.
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Well some of them only lead a lonely life. Some of them do. And I
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used to talk to nuns on the street I used to talk to Sister Mary and sister Virginia.
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Did you ever feel all alone yourself. Up to now. Yeah there are a
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few and nobody wanted you. Well somebody want you now with your separate from.
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What about being here is it true that the longer you stay the less pain for this most
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painful must be the first day you get here. Next day isn't so bad.
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All of them are good. There's never getting better.
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But I notice you don't seem as depressed now as when you first came in. Were you scared then or what.
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Yes just a little bit. You never been here before.
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No I mean you mean for tape recording. No I mean in a detention home.
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Excuse me. Yes I was here before when they sent me to the house.
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Is there anything that scares you or worry you for your age.
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Yeah. Nothing.
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Yeah you're not afraid of darkness or being by yourself. Yeah
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yeah.
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Dead people and the dead can hurt you. It's what the living can do.
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It's the living that you should be afraid of not the dead. I used to when I was real little
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in the daytime I used to go up in the cemetery and play with my dog and everything. I used to be scared to
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death. I would go on the grass for nothing to get the ball.
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Now I play in the graveyard where I used to live. And if I
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ever used to take a short cut through there God come in from school
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just to think of my problems by myself get to the cemetery. I see
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way from everybody on the street from school
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and I used to still stop and look at the tombstones in the net you know
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died.
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He was born in everything like that. It's interesting
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yes but no one no adults ever scare you.
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Now.
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What kind of family would you like to have a family or to get married. If you do get married.
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Well I like to have a family that well that goes to the billies in
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God and goes to church and everything. Not a husband drinks
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or everything like that and a nice quiet husband
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comes home sits down and watches television just for a little
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while and not take too much interest in it. And then my play
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cards or something. And one thing I don't want my kids to do is play cards on Sunday.
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I think that's awful that's bad. What kind of girl do you think
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you are. I am you know that's a hard question.
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Thank you. Would you like a friend to be like you or would you like her to be different.
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Well I will want them to be like me as if they are like me that probably wind
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up in the same place I am.
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Is there any other message that you have.
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Yeah except that I want to go home when I go home I will
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that I'm going to pray to God to make me be good and never get back in here again.
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I maybe if he helps and you help it might.
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Well the only thing that scares me is that I don't know when my hearing is and neither does
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my mother and my worker has only been up to see me one time. Sometimes
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I think she doesn't want to help me. She wants to get me. She's trying to get me set up.
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But you wouldn't draw that from anything that she said would you.
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Because I feel like she's probably very interested in you and what you know I think you know when
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she first came up I started telling the truth. I from the beginning I says I don't have any
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intentions of running away. And she says when you're ready to tell the truth you call me.
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That's all she said she knew. She does lie.
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If I wasn't you could call her now. And she's
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down there now. I don't mean at the moment I mean now that you do tell the truth.
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That's about all you think. Does your dad drink a lot. Oh yeah.
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He always did and did he fight a great deal with humanity.
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Block in memory ever did. Maybe that's
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colored some of your picture why you don't want him around you think
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oh yeah maybe we should we can back again
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talk OK.
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And now joining father Duffy to discuss the features of this child's world is his
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guest Mr. Hilary mo Drac alumnus of Duquesne University who is now casework supervisor for
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Allegheny County's quarter section criminal court. Here are Father Duffy
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And Mr. Modric.
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Today we welcome again Mr. Hill remote direct probation officer for Quarter Sessions criminal court.
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What were some of the things that you thought about this girl I was very much
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impressed with the fact that she didn't have too much animosity
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towards anyone except the teacher. You know she didn't have too much to say even to
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us our own father.
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Now that's right. I think the teacher handled her very badly and I don't like that she did
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pointing her out as a juvenile court warty juvie making her look ridiculous
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in front of the other students that happened sometimes father that hit some of these matters that we get an
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awful lot of complaints about some of them.
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It doesn't happen too frequently you know very fortunately this trial also
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gives the impression that she's promising to be good and she goes into
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it don't you think useless detail she wants to describe every last little item that revolved
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around the situation. But I would like to say this that as you and I
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know in talking with your children like this the important thing is not so much the
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content as it is to try to get the child's attitudes.
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That's what I think that's right father. Were you impressed as I was
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possibly about that. The way she referred to the probation officer
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and she said that almost immediately after she was apprehended that she wanted to see
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her probation officer when she came into the detention home she wanted when she did see her
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probation officer and was told that she would be able to see or the first thing the following morning. That's
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sort of eased her mind a little bit. Yes she did however in all fairness to the youngsters
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she did say that her probation officer was going to send her up the river.
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I don't know what exactly what she did say but words to that effect anyhow. Yes
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that was my impression that was the only time chief referred to anyone
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and a disparaging sort of manner kind of negative there.
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But again I think what maybe she was looking for reassurance there and I try to give her
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reassurance and see how it worked.
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But you wouldn't draw anything from what the probation officer said that she was going to send
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you I thought if you handled that very well when you when you told her that the probation I was there didn't consider any
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commitment to an institution. And I thought that was handled very well in fact.
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You always reminded me of the way information operations have on our stuff.
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I think two children do get very apprehensive and I think occasionally probation
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officers take advantage of this. It's a good detail to keep in mind. If a child
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comes in maybe they won't see him for a day or two. I've noticed this about children
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like this. If you talk to them maybe you can't get anything out of them in the
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way of their story. If you tell them Well I can't see you today you better wait till tomorrow
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or I'll see you Wednesday. By the time Wednesday comes along they are just simply bubbling over
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with their story they can't wait to tell you I know it's nothing to about children when they
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are reluctant to tell you something. If you tell them what you don't have to tell me. At this
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point very often it gushes out the one thing you know you don't have to know.
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That should tell you a father and my experience as a
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probation officer. I would like to point out one thing that is
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very important in the life of children who are in trouble especially in trouble with the juvenile court
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authorities. Regardless of what type of an individual the probation
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officer is already Carlist what kind of treatment these individuals are getting
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regardless of where they are they always go back to the probation officer a probation officer
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is really a many occasions defense attorney he's a prosecuting attorney. He's
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a father caught Fessor he's almost everything to this youngster
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and this child most likely felt the same way regarding her probation officer.
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Is it true to that very often these children will write to you after you get out and get settled and straightened out.
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Oh yeah but you have had two or three hundred. Oh yes I received a letter one time from a boy who told
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me that he was 15 years of age now and they quit drinking and
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when I was going to be off probation.
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This little girl is a kind of pathetic figure in that the only one that she seems to be
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negatively disposed to is the father and she doesn't really beat him up too much. I think
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her idea is that we can do without him my mother can do without him and so can I. Apparently
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when asked about what kind of a husband she'd like to have if she wanted one who
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wouldn't drink. And right away I think that's the tipoff that the father is probably
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drunk I would suggest.
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Also if she wanted one would stay around and this I think indicates the fact that she
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resents the fact that the father did run away and then she
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had a fairly typically Protestant dislike for card playing on
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Sunday I thought I was kind of cute since she doesn't want to be a nun. Yes yes.
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Do you find his work it depressing you have been in a great number of years and met and dealt
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with a great number of children I guess thousands of them. Do you find it depressing at any point. Or
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did you in the beginning get over it.
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I think of this a most exhilarating position and I don't want to have each
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day as different. Might have
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put one in the doll rooms occasionally but when did you see a
[22:26 - 22:31]
youngster mature and developed into a useful
[22:31 - 22:36]
citizen. All of the heartaches are forgotten almost
[22:36 - 22:37]
immediately.
[22:37 - 22:41]
Well then this of course reassures me that this is a tremendously
[22:41 - 22:46]
worthwhile field and to hear one who's been in a great number of years who is
[22:46 - 22:50]
still sold on the idea that good is being done for these children which would not
[22:50 - 22:51]
otherwise be done.
[22:51 - 22:56]
Would you say that's true if I did. As I pointed out before in many cases
[22:56 - 23:02]
probation officer servers as sometimes the sole relative of
[23:02 - 23:06]
some of these youngsters I can remember when a boy asked me one time
[23:06 - 23:11]
if I would serve as a sponsor of his confirmation. He did not even know what
[23:11 - 23:16]
religion I was and I said well why have you chosen me for this. And
[23:16 - 23:21]
he says well you're the only relative that I have. But an awful lot of these boys
[23:21 - 23:27]
adopt probation officers as well attests. So boy a one time told me that
[23:27 - 23:29]
I was his uncle.
[23:29 - 23:33]
Yes. Well children I found myself experienced too. They will identify with you.
[23:33 - 23:40]
Very often children will say that you are their father or they wish they were their father.
[23:40 - 23:44]
And very often I've responded to that by saying well what's the matter don't you want to be friends anymore.
[23:44 - 23:49]
Because their idea of a father is a pretty negative concept I think but I think see the
[23:49 - 23:54]
father as one who who perhaps comes home drunk who lays down very rigid rules and doesn't
[23:54 - 23:59]
follow them himself. One who's never satisfied insatiable and one who kind of
[23:59 - 24:04]
resists and resents the idea that he has to spread some of his money over to these little
[24:04 - 24:05]
children.
[24:05 - 24:09]
Yes maybe we're getting a little bit away from Fanny here. I think we
[24:09 - 24:14]
were talking about the probation but I think that the probation
[24:14 - 24:20]
officer in this case has established a very wonderful
[24:20 - 24:25]
report with this girl whatever her approach would be I
[24:25 - 24:30]
think would be for the best interest of the girl even if she did say that she would not talk to her until
[24:30 - 24:35]
she had made up her mind to tell the truth as I thought of that approach was good for the profession I think it is.
[24:35 - 24:40]
It did not indicate that she was not interested. No. First maybe this year all this
[24:40 - 24:45]
and a TON of the whole truth is true and heart of the matter. And she just thought it was interesting when
[24:45 - 24:50]
she said that she did not particularly like the detention of the kind of children who were crying there all the time.
[24:50 - 24:55]
I believe that I quoted her years later and I don't think that these children who
[24:55 - 25:00]
come from homes where there are not too much appreciated care for this they would rather have
[25:00 - 25:05]
the care free. Exuberance
[25:05 - 25:11]
of childhood pleasures that exist everywhere.
[25:11 - 25:16]
Would you see this child as as a possible duplicate of the system that she grew
[25:16 - 25:21]
up under. In other words is she going to marry a fellow who isn't much good who will who will abandon her
[25:21 - 25:22]
and the three or four children.
[25:22 - 25:27]
I think that this girl for her 14 years have has a mature
[25:27 - 25:30]
viewpoint regarding that and she's liable to blossom out into a
[25:30 - 25:36]
respectable mother and wife. Eventually
[25:36 - 25:41]
I would have her prognosis for her getting along in society eventually as
[25:41 - 25:42]
good I would think.
[25:42 - 25:47]
You don't think that she was just feeding me the old line about the sudden switch into religious
[25:47 - 25:48]
topics.
[25:48 - 25:53]
Well in the she did I think that she is aware of nicer things and yes
[25:53 - 25:58]
it's true that the nuns of the cleanliness of it. And I
[25:58 - 26:00]
think those who want to help people there.
[26:00 - 26:05]
Yes when she said she would like to be a nurse. That to two illustrates
[26:05 - 26:10]
that she is interested in people. I think that she would be on her way with a little bit of
[26:10 - 26:12]
encouragement.
[26:12 - 26:16]
You didn't see anything particularly significant about this graveyard scene
[26:16 - 26:22]
but she mentions very often going into the graveyard on the way home from school to avoid the other kids and
[26:22 - 26:25]
think over her problems at 14 we wonder what they might be.
[26:25 - 26:30]
Well I thought sponsored by the doctor that maybe a lot of us like to get our way sometimes
[26:30 - 26:35]
and just sit down and think of our problems and she was finding this area just
[26:35 - 26:40]
conducive to her thinking. Yeah that's what I thought oppression have I ever
[26:40 - 26:45]
say but if I was a baby a playground or a
[26:45 - 26:50]
recreation center or a park the babyish accomplish the same
[26:50 - 26:55]
thing but says it was a sex cemetery nearby sheers that area to sit down I think of and I
[26:55 - 26:59]
think that this period has been a lot of thinking in our time. Yes I think she has to
[26:59 - 27:05]
get out of the oppression for that. Fanny likes
[27:05 - 27:10]
to remember names of the people who are going to help her. She referred to this individual in the
[27:10 - 27:14]
detention home going into the nursing of the dance and I thought that that is something
[27:14 - 27:19]
worth considering. I think she appreciates all those people attempting to help
[27:19 - 27:23]
her and she would not neglect to remember their names.
[27:23 - 27:28]
It's almost as she is if she were putting her hand out to take hold of her that's right and that is we are helping.
[27:28 - 27:33]
That's a natural beauty I think that very few of us children of the 14 year old classification
[27:33 - 27:38]
have seen how we have to specially a girl in trouble in a detention home. I felt
[27:38 - 27:42]
that as I pointed out before that with some apparent this fear should
[27:42 - 27:46]
blossom out into a very nice subsequently a very nice
[27:46 - 27:50]
wife and mother.
[27:50 - 27:55]
Well I want to thank you Mr. Hormel drek again for a very wholesome
[27:55 - 27:59]
and good analysis a positive analysis of this particular case of the
[27:59 - 28:06]
14 year old Protestant girl who thinks that she might want to either be a nurse or a nun.
[28:06 - 28:11]
You have been listening to exploring the child's world the program in which the
[28:11 - 28:15]
child speaks. Father Francis Duffy a professor of sociology at Duquesne
[28:15 - 28:20]
University has conducted the interview with the child and to find the outlines of this world in the
[28:20 - 28:23]
discussion with his guest Mr. Hilary Modric.
[28:23 - 28:42]
This has been a presentation of the radio service of Duquesne University in cooperation with the Kings
[28:42 - 28:47]
alumni association. Technical director Fred McWilliams program director and
[28:47 - 28:48]
announcer.
[28:48 - 28:53]
Our older may listen again next week for another in the series exploring the child's
[28:53 - 29:05]
world.
[29:05 - 29:10]
The interview heard on this program was a recreation exploring the child's world is
[29:10 - 29:14]
distributed by the National Association of educational broadcasters.
[29:14 - 29:17]
This is the end he b Radio Network.