#7 Abortion: Good or Evil?

One plus one equals three four.

Any gun you go on I want you to win it

when you meet me then when I'm done I'm done.

It is estimated that in 16:50 there were four hundred seventy million people in the world.

It took two centuries for that figure to double. It took only one century to double

again. Today there are well over three and a half billion of us

sharing this planet. Demographers tell us that by the year 2000 the world

population will swell to almost 7 billion. This series of programs

is about this problem about what happens because one plus one

equals three.

The area.

That I've ever read is only about 16. Give me a hand and watch

your head. All right got an.

Abortion but a week's pay out it has about gone to Carlow.

According to the president's commission on law enforcement and administration of justice

the United States lost about one hundred and twenty million dollars due to

illegal abortions in 1965. It places no

barriers on the loss of human lives. And all too many illegal abortions

result in just lap death for the woman involved

causes. Rusty coat hangers on sanitary practices incompetence

shock blood poisoning to name a few. It's been estimated that roughly

500000 to 1 million out of hospital abortions take

place each year in this nation alone. A third to one half of these are performed by the woman

herself by friends or neighbors or by a black market blunderer

dowse from these illegal abortions have been estimated at about a thousand

per year in the United States. The

picture for legal abortions is quite different performed under good conditions by a qualified

physician. Abortion is considered safer than childbirth and certainly no more

hazardous than many minor operations. The controversy over illegal abortions of

course does not concern the safety of the procedure but its moral

implications that are in this program we will in a sense ignore this larger

philosophical lation We will tackle that in a later program in the series today though

we'll be dealing mainly with a factual and medical aspects of abortion. We'll be

hearing from University of Illinois Medical Center physicians from an official at the Japanese Consulate in

Chicago and from some population experts on a

worldwide basis. Abortion is the most widely used form of birth control

and not to fill a house or a professor of sociology and director the Population Research Center at the University

of Chicago.

Now the more desirable methods are some of those we've been discussing though here I might

distinguish among three things often confuse. One misconception Joe.

This includes all the methods by which conception is prevented

behavioral mechanical chemical or

physiological search. Second is birth control.

Not birth control it includes conception and job plus abortion. And

abortion like it or not is still the most widely used method of birth control in the world as

a whole and the economically advanced nations including the United States we use

mostly conception and Joe abetted by Bush largely through the invested

in medium underground channels in the developing regions of the world. The

major method is abortion. And I just began to try to get a conception control.

I doubt third as population control. And this includes the

relationship between births deaths and migration and

consideration of social economic policy and programs that can affect the birth

rate the death rate and migration rate. Now no nation in the world yet has population

control but I think all nations sooner or later will have a doctor killing

Hauser's comments.

Sad background of the following remarks by knocked around a good marker. President of Planned

Parenthood world population. Dr. Gridlock there is a strong advocate of

abortion law reform.

Well I live with this problem. Since I

started my residency at the Hopkins and 25 years ago so

I know it theoretically and I know it practically

and I know that there's no way of preventing illegal abortion.

And therefore I want to substitute safe and legal abortion

which is nondiscriminatory in the Iwate of this can be done

is to make abortion a matter between doctor and

patient which is true of all other medical

matters. Need a church nor a state enter into

other facets of medicine. There's no particular reason today should enter into

this. There should be the right of privacy. Therefore

if a woman who is pregnant earnestly desires not to be

pregnant I think it's her privilege and right to go to a physician. Discuss the

matter and he has to make proper medical judgement as to whether it would

serve the best interest of the woman and the child unborn to

carry out safe abortion. If he rejects this then that's it

privilege. She could go to another position or if she's a wise lady she might

take his advice. This is I think where abortion should be.

All of these punitive laws haven't worked.

We think we have a million illegal abortions in this country every year. And if a million

good citizens break a law it's a damn bad law. And

furthermore abortion is hideously discriminatory. The

affluent usually can buy a safe abortion. The poor are needed the most.

Pay the cost of life and I

am completely unwilling to allow this to continue. Now

as a physician I agree with the great.

Roman position of 130 a D who wrote in his book

that it is wiser and safer to prevent conception and

to eliminate it. I would much rather see effective contraception used.

Abortion is not a contraceptive procedure. Abortion

is no substitute for contraception abortion should be used only as a

backup mechanism for failed contraception or failure to

use contraception.

Many do not agree with Dr Allen good marker. Most notably the Roman

Catholic Church has and continues to exert strong pressure against more liberal

abortion law and the question of abortion law reform is a hot

issue in many states. What are some of the facts behind the issue

for discussion of the medical aspects of the issue. We turn to five physicians who practice

medicine in Chicago and teach on the faculty of the University of Illinois Medical Center

and Jack Reed Timer of the medical center's Public Information Office raised the issue of abortion

during a roundtable discussion with doctors in jr high school John P. Howard

Robert C. Steptoe Robert W. Blum Stein and John M. Kalak.

You start off first with the you take the house you fire proof the

house. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't have a fire extinguisher in the house as your

own thing should bring your birth control methods including the bill fail. Now are we

going to punish women who are who the birth control pill fails on who do honestly take it when

they do get it right and it's a very minute what are we going to punish them for Medical Sciences Fadia.

It's not their fate if they've taken the pill. And even if it is even if it is we have

fibro control fails in 3 class of women most are common and that's extremely young

extremely older than they and they hiding your IP. Those will be the worst group of

women to have children. So therefore the abortion should be available on anybody's arm

and caring for all. For use now as far as the laws are concerned there is

no law. In this country I there should be no laws put it that way.

Any modification of liberalization is just kidding ourselves.

Abortions as should be. There's not nobody can give any logical reason why there should be a tie

up between the. Between religion and abortion so why

not. Well I would come back to the point of murder. Oh it's only been know that

the right has been less than a hundred years of the Catholic Church is opposed to abortion. Now. We've

known that it's a bit was it not that I want her before it was not made up before that. There's no state

not a state law strife or murder this is murder and if we're if we're

executing these babies who do a therapeutic abortion like it should have legal counsel

before we execute it. They don't bite it's all under various codes and there's only

one one place and I miss all of the modifications are no good.

What we do to throw him off. Oh yeah anybody should be on the low I think anybody who wants an abortion

have one almost done it.

No I don't think either should be a decision between the I mean I can feel I can do a

hysterectomy without anybody except me and the patient discussing it nationwide discussing it.

Oh I can't do an abortion without certain legal restrictions and

I don't think this is right I think. Why I think there should be a medical decision between the doctors

and other doctors mourning for him.

I want to set up medical indications there but I don't think there should be a state law and I

reject something here I think that all of our discussions over the country about abortion that we've

neglected one of the most important groups and this is the female population. We've

been sitting down by and large in committees made up of males and we've

decided what is good and what is not good for the women but we would not let them have a real

voice in this and I think there should be a number of women doctors women educators

Housewives sitting down and taking part in these discussions and these are

the people involved more than we and yet we're the ones that are sitting down making a

rule deciding what is best and what is not best for them. We really haven't asked them and they're the

ones that are having the problems if we put it as a problem. Frances

Pa. and I worked on a state medical society when I was in Pennsylvania for many years

in this area and trying to change the law whether this is silly because Pennsylvania

has no more prohibiting abortion. And the only laws on this thing you change a law the law does

is right and yet you say the idea is that we have to have some law in the books.

Well there is no law and Pennsylvania for example and the states where there is a law

prohibiting it I think we should discuss very clearly whether this law has any

constitutional or violates the individual rights of people more

than whether this is murder or not murder. There's more involved in this.

I mean I have a I mean a patient has a right not to have an abortion Nobody's

saying people have to they believe that this is a life but this is their right but I

feel that other women have a right to have an abortion if they feel this isn't a life. Now

you're getting back to the point of life which theologians can't agree on either

one.

Don't I want to go so how well one does a life one does so I don't look at me when I think of my

life.

I mean if you're going to if you're going to say from the moment of fertilization

what makes satellite at that time why not why not make it a life at the time that

sperm has life in it. Not any I mean so that if I were I certainly the

IUD has not been washed by this law. Off forms of birth control in a sense are

with you going to get it. So you have to draw the line somewhere and my feeling would be that

that all life is a life when it can sustain life on its own outside of your

own time.

Well we speak about the law and abortion. The fact of the matter is that regardless of what

the law says there are a million abortions here being occurring in the United States

and there is no state where where abortion

is legal so that the law doesn't agree with the practice. The fact of the matter is that in Illinois there's never been a

case at least as of last year when we checked it. There's never been a case

tried in a court against a licensed physician for doing an abortion in a hospital in the

open from any middle medical indication. So that regardless of

what the law says the practice doesn't agree with the law there's a law that says women can't wear

happens. And it's been on the books for more than a hundred years. I mean when it's not enforced

and the abortion law in this kind in this state has never been enforced

against the medical profession it is the real problem is that all of these million

abortions the overwhelming majority are being done in alleys and garages by

people who are not trained to use dangerous tactics that lead to a great deal of

morbidity and mortality. And I think that our goal with abortion is

to either cut down on criminal abortions or put them in the hands of competent

people. But I fear that too liberal a law will cause abortion to become a

substitute for the other methods of birth control and I would push sterilization

far ahead of birth control I would. There is no law that governs sterilization there's

no reason why women with three children who's 30 or 35 and is certain that

she wants two more children and her husband agrees can't go into a hospital have a tubal ligation

done either by either of two simple methods where she can be out of the hospital the next

day. And it's a relatively inexpensive relatively safe

procedure and never be confronted with the need for abortion.

I mean God first place I don't want to I'm sure Dr. Bloom's to you knows what he's talking about on the

million abortions in this NG that higher estimates what very few of these are done in hospitals only a

very small percentage and I didn't want anyone to think that he is talking about a million hospital

abortions I don't see why I should if I want to do want to abortion on someone whom the

mother's had German measles in the first month of pregnancy why I have got to think of reasons that she may

commit suicide I mean we can skate around the law and we are doing it but I

don't think we I don't think we should have to do that and it's followers. So.

Can I go OK we've gone around this and I don't like to cover get involved as to what you

don't want to correct me. You must have certain limitations on

who wrote it would not have abortions either within yourselves or you must have here

could you delineate that each one of you who would you you know. Well in this instance and

you just mentioned one about somebody who has measles logical now but I assume some girl

comes in was healthy as a horse and so forth and so words I was one of those because I don't want a child.

You have to stop somewhere you have to have within your own framework because as physicians you've got to have some kind of

a standard set up don't you for regardless of moral or legal.

You must have somewhere on articular answers us first places abortions are more painful than most

costly and they're more hazardous than any other method of birth control we have.

So I would never I don't think very few people would assume that selective abortions are the primary

means of birth control. I do come out as far as limitations are concerned.

My only limitations would be whether I feel the woman is mature enough to know what she wants. If

I thought she had no choice I don't think everyone in this country should have babies. And I

think if she had no children and she's mature enough to know what she wants I would think that she should

be. I don't do that because the law prohibits me. What I think and I can't think that

reason but I think she should be allowed to have an abortion.

I think today there are very clear indications of what we should be doing with our concern

for the individual especially I think the people that come to see us by and large are mature

enough to have explained to them. Woman I was German measles in the first.

12 weeks of pregnancy that you as a mouse from Asian is extremely high. My birth order on 50

percent and she should be given the statistics and allowed to make some decision in

conjunction with the medical people involved in her case. I think also a

case where there's out not raped rape or incest for instance involved

that the family should be able to discusses and decide whether this.

Young girl 12 or 14 who's been raped by a moron for

example should be allowed to go ahead and jeopardize her emotional stability as she was

growing up with carrying such a child and bearing such a child. I think also there are

good reasons if you want to go into the question of limitation of family size

which I tend to be less liberal on than the rest of my colleagues I think

in correct me if I'm in error on this but I think there are definite areas where we should talk over

with the patients and their families. And if indeed they're

concerned about it with their clergyman also if they're that they're involved in the

religious aspect of their life before we decide on a course that.

I think that.

It's real that every woman should have a right to decide whether or not she wants to have a

child. That's point one. That's the premise. In my mind

regards to this. Secondly yes if she comes

to me to be aborted.

Then it should be. My right to be able to

perform an abortion on her. This should be the first. These are two premises. OK.

These are rights rights of women they have a baby. Read

me as a going to make a decision as to whether or not to perform the abortion.

And I think this is an interpersonal relationship between the patient and the doctor and

I think that's where the decision should be made. Now legislation goes to the point

of saying that what you cannot or cannot do and I don't think that

if a liberal law is passed and I say use a smiley because the

fact that there's been so much involvement in it. Yes there will not be any more.

Miss Chris Lee you as is the birth control pill today in regards to

increasing premarital relationships among college girls would

statistically show that hasn't changed one iota.

And my feeling is that in responsible hands and responsible

people it should be every sponsible that these remarks from a

roundtable discussion moderated by Jack reg time or how the Office of Public Information at the University of

Illinois Medical Center in Chicago. The physicians participating in the discussion were doctors

in jail Daskal John P. Howe read Robert C. Steptoe Robert W.

Stein and John M. Callon. The problem

with an issue like abortion is the highly charged emotions and surround it.

Yet abortion is a reality in our modern world. Whether or not it is legal

restricted or banned several eastern European nations legalized

abortion between 150 five and nine hundred fifty seven. Officially these

communist nations did so to obviate the illegal dangerous operations. I

sassed however also significantly lower their birth rates.

Japan introduced the unrestricted use of legal safe abortion in 1988.

What was involved in this decision and what has been the result. All these questions were put to

Mr. Kenge an economy consultant on cultural affairs for the Consulate General of Japan in

Chicago and during an interview in the consulate offices.

In 1997.

I just have a past they reject.

Abortion. And then you say all these

people who are concerned. I mean not involved with this will be.

Punished. And end it with rigid abortion on which it was

forbidden. Yes that's right.

And then. Particularly in 1940

it became a more rigid because as you know

they said Japan was. Just trying to

increase its population. And India. Boy if only they.

Believed in their children and the increased kind of

slaughter. So that was very stringently.

Brigit law against. Abortion. However

we noticed that there were some cases where.

Children. Were. Born and. Deliberately. Murdered.

So. Of. Course this is. In the

book. Itself. But.

Easy. To defeat a war. Occupation

is occupation in rapid succession brought

about a complete change. In the country's look

making national eugenics glow of age.

At that time. There were some scandals such as.

The Shins you could overlook a maternity hospital just.

After the war of course. In 1946 47.

We found that case one. Hundred five. Bomb babies where.

Everybody. Moved. And saw.

That they had to think some way to.

Stop this kind of. Things in Japan.

And of course as you know many people were coming back from

Taiwan Manchu Korea. Some other

countries. Come back. To JAPAN. Then there was a queue.

House shelters. And. Living condition

was very bad. In Japan. On top of it the flint shop.

When this law passed in nineteen forty seven.

That was on July 13th. They passed a law.

To. Make. Abortion.

Not so. Drive abortion to the black

market. You see it not to. Do that. So that they have to

pass this law. And at that time of course the Japanese people were

busy with how to eat you know those they sell the

calorie intake. Have a shelf about 2000

calories. A day which is very small. And they were

crying for more rice more food. So on

so that while they were busy with this kind of thing

the. Diet national diet passed this law.

In general is an indication of say Japanese women respond to the

opportunity of abortion is a very widely used in ship

today and how this it's used compared with their family

other contraceptive methods.

You know as a contraceptive cept method

has the knowledge spread. In

1955. To.

Every.

Three persons using the contraceptive.

Plus three. Two three two every three there were seven

cases of voice. And in 1960 it was an

equal number of five to five. Then in 1965 it

was completely reversed. 73 seven

contraceptive. And then.

Publishing. These remarks by Mr. Kenge an economy consultant on

cultural affairs for the Consulate General of Japan in Chicago they were

recorded in the consulate offices. What is the

status of abortion in this country at the present time.

Most states severely restrict abortion statutes very considerably of course.

However the usual requirements for legal abortions include one or more of the following.

To save a woman's life to preserve a woman's physical or mental health. An

indication of fetal malformation or pregnancy that results from rape or

incest. Recently several states including New York and Alaska

have adopted liberal abortion laws. I y e s liberalize ist abortion law

though doctors and hospitals are not required to perform abortions and there is a three month

residency requirement for those seeking the operation. Almost all states

which have not liberalise or abortion laws will be faced with this issue soon. Vermont

Maryland and Illinois I have at the time this program was prepared had the issue before the

state legislature. There is no doubt that abortion is coming out of the

shadows in America. We are beginning to realize that no matter what we think of abortion

we are going to have to face the issue and decide what we are going to do about the five hundred

thousand it 1 million abortions that are currently taking place in this country each year.

Abortion. Is it good or evil. And what are we going to do

about it.

You have been listening to one plus one equals three four five

a series of programs about the problems we face because of our growing population. Your

host for this program has been Dennis Corrigan special music performed by Ria Truscott

engineering by Edna Haney.

Here I am not one bit not one of me. There are right that

many like me there and like many

you meet there and live life to their

feet. Not that I know one thing

that is me

there.

One plus one equals three four five was produced and directed by

the East Geisler it's a W I L L the radio service of the University of Illinois in

Urbana.

This is the national educational radio network.